ICRC Index Cards

[Keith_history_buff]

52 minutes ago, B EVERTON said:

Thanks Kieth, I will check out WO96 shortly. This is Ernest.

 

This is a great picture of him pre-war, wearing what I believe to be a 1903 pattern bandolier. (I'm not an expert on kit.)

Given that he was in the militia (presumably until it was disbanded in 1908 and replaced by the SR), it seems highly likely that he would have continued in the Special Reserve. If he had moved in the mean time, there may be a county regiment closer  to his new address. (I have come across a man in the TF. He joined the Hampshire Regiment in Gosport, whilst a student teacher, and despite moving to London, he continued to attend their annual camps. Had war not broken out, he may well have joined a London Regiment TF unit at the end of his 4 year period).

In some instances of the BWM / VM medal rolls, the rolls are segregated into Regular, then Special Reserve terms of service. Unfortunately, this was not the case for the Worcestershires.

It all makes for an interesting story.

Do you know if he has a card in the Western Front Association's dataset? I am not an Ancestry & Fold3 subscriber.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61588

Thanks,

Keith

[B EVERTON]

A very big thank you to Keith & Charlie, I will now follow up both leads. 

Regards

Brian

[B EVERTON]

Just to update my topic on ICRC Index Cards I have made several decisions regarding the accuracy  of the information.

Having extensively studied the War Diaries of The 3rd Worcestershire and 1st Cheshire Regiments in relation to the Battle of Aisne and based on the recorded locations of both I cannot see how Ernest could have become 'absorbed' into the Cheshire's.

The Worcester's were in position at Vailly-Sur-Aisne with opposing trenches to the North at Rouge Maison against the germans. The Worcestershire Archives sent me a detailed map of the battlefield and surrounding area and circled where Ernest was reported 'Missing in Action-Presumed Dead.(between the opposing trenches)

The Cheshire's were originally on the far left flank of Vailly prior to the battle and gradually moved in an arc to various positions to the south by several +miles around the time Ernest was missing. How the link to the Cheshire's ever came about is down to pure speculation and for me now discounted.

I have arranged to meet with the Worcestershire Regiment Archives Curator this coming week to resolve the ''Suspicious Case'' entry on the Medals Index.

I am very grateful to those who responded to my topic and offered good guideance and advice.

Brian

[Skipman]

The ICRC entry says attached after combat at Mons doesn't it. He could have ended up in the Cheshires any time between 23/8/1914 and 21/9/1914?

 

Mike

[B EVERTON]

15 hours ago, Skipman said:

The ICRC entry says attached after combat at Mons doesn't it. He could have ended up in the Cheshires any time between 23/8/1914 and 21/9/1914?

 

Mike

I am sure you are right Mike, but as he was only recorded as Missing on the 21st Sept he must have been present at all previous Roll Call's up to that point.

The possible truth about all this could be the facts related to ''Suspicious Case'' which I intend to investigate fully.

His Pension/Army Pay/Medals were withheld for 5yrs rather than the customary 6 months but eventually paid so whatever the ''suspicion'' he must have been exonerated.

I am quite capable to shoulder the truth, good or bad, about the circumstances relating to all this but the Dark Cloud cast over his name at the time needs resolution.

Brian

[seaforths]

On 09/02/2019 at 18:40, Skipman said:

The ICRC entry says attached after combat at Mons doesn't it. He could have ended up in the Cheshires any time between 23/8/1914 and 21/9/1914?

 

Mike

 

On 10/02/2019 at 10:46, B EVERTON said:

I am sure you are right Mike, but as he was only recorded as Missing on the 21st Sept he must have been present at all previous Roll Call's up to that point.

The possible truth about all this could be the facts related to ''Suspicious Case'' which I intend to investigate fully.

His Pension/Army Pay/Medals were withheld for 5yrs rather than the customary 6 months but eventually paid so whatever the ''suspicion'' he must have been exonerated.

I am quite capable to shoulder the truth, good or bad, about the circumstances relating to all this but the Dark Cloud cast over his name at the time needs resolution.

Brian

 

I think Mike is quite right. If he was noted as being missing on the 21st then he had been missing since the previous roll call, whenever that was taken. Do you have anything stating when the previous roll call was? One instance I’ve read from this time period was that the particular unit were unable to take a roll call until they had managed to rest safely. It had not been a matter of days but weeks since their previous roll call. And when they did manage to take the call, he said it was out of date immediately because of the constant stream of stragglers rejoining from being lost or making their way back from other units that they had attached themselves to. The situation was complete mayhem.

 

I have in the past posted an explanation as to how the British Red Cross searched for the missing but circumstances are not on my side at the moment so I will post the appropriate pages from The British Red Cross in Action:

 

 

[B EVERTON]

I am very grateful to Seaforths for providing this information, I am learning daily about researching this topic and at best can only apply a very basic logic when replying to those offering their viewpoint or suggestions. Everyone who has replied has my greatest respect and gratitude and would welcome any input.

The more I begin to see the bigger picture the more I realise the task facing me and no guarantee of success either but not without the utmost determination.

The more leads I am given the greater the motivation.

Brian

[seaforths]

On 05/02/2019 at 11:49, charlie2 said:

The information on the card is that supplied by whoever enquired as to his fate.

Charlie

 

Brian, Charlie was right too. I think that the information on the card came from those making the enquiry. Although the information on the card possibly and initially came from a wounded Cheshire man and in turn enquiries to the IRC probably comes from the BRC’s French offices, French tended to be the accepted international language then. So the information about him being with the Cheshires has come from their enquiries then when he hasn’t turned up in a hospital or list of dead, been passed to IRC to help them try to locate him as a POW. The BRC would have kept NOK informed. They seem to have moved quite quickly and the IRC, according to the date stamp on the card have opened their file/enquiries 23 Jan 1915. All purely conjecture but makes some sense.

 

Families were encouraged to accept death after six months so that they could begin to settle the soldiers estate for the families. However, some families refused to accept death and held out until after the war and the post armistice searches had been concluded. There were actually very few men whose whereabouts were still of interest to the British authorities after the armistice and they pressed the Germans for answers about them. The files following up on these men of interest, are in the FCO files at Kew although some of them are digitised on FMP. I’m not sure if the latter hold digital copies of the files I am referring to. Off the top of my head, I am unable to recall any of their names with accuracy. It has been a couple of years or more since I’ve read those files. Good luck.

[B EVERTON]

Once again my thanks for your guidance. I am struggling with the ''Cheshire'' link only because when carefully comparing the War Diaries of the 1st Battalion Cheshire with 3rd Battalion Worcesters around the date listed as 'Missing' the 2 battalions were miles apart and the Cheshire's south of Vailly-Sur-Aisne where the Worcesters were dug in so how Ernest could have joined with them without passing through his own regimental HQ is a mystery, however, the reference to the Battle of Mons creates more questions although as yet I have not checked the diaries of both around the time of Mons where they may have been in closer proximity but the time between Roll Calls (Mons&Aisne) does seem a slim explanation as to his true date of MIA but I have learned never to rule anything out until hard facts prove otherwise. I am visiting the Worcestershire Battalion Museum Archive Curator tomorrow (Thurs) to see if he can shine a light on some of the questions I have (hope he's got all day)

Brian

[Skipman]

On the night of the 25th/26th of August, 1914, the 15th Infantry Brigade (5th Division) at (Troisvilles), and parts of the 7th Infantry Brigade (3rd Division)(between Beauvois and Caudry), only 3-4 miles apart. It's possible they were even closer at times? The Situation of the B.E.F. Map Night 25-26 August, 1914, Official History Map Case 1914, Vol 1, shows this clearly. I have it on DVD but unfortunately, it's not possible to take a screen shot of this.

 

Mike

[B EVERTON]

Thanks Mike, will look into this as part of my growing ''to do list''. The Worcestershire Regimental webmaster sent me the map where they believe he went missing (Circled) on or about the date recorded, just another possible fact which seems to contradicts others depending on it's validity.

[seaforths]

3 hours ago, Skipman said:

On the night of the 25th/26th of August, 1914, the 15th Infantry Brigade (5th Division) at (Troisvilles), and parts of the 7th Infantry Brigade (3rd Division)(between Beauvois and Caudry), only 3-4 miles apart. It's possible they were even closer at times? The Situation of the B.E.F. Map Night 25-26 August, 1914, Official History Map Case 1914, Vol 1, shows this clearly. I have it on DVD but unfortunately, it's not possible to take a screen shot of this.

 

Mike

 

Mike, is it one of those cds that you open with a piece of software called ERS Mapping? If so, you can’t do a ‘save as’ but you can do an ‘export as’ and export it as a png file and open it in MS Paint and then save as a jpg - all a bit of a chew but it’s a work around.

[Skipman]

1 hour ago, seaforths said:

 

Mike, is it one of those cds that you open with a piece of software called ERS Mapping? If so, you can’t do a ‘save as’ but you can do an ‘export as’ and export it as a png file and open it in MS Paint and then save as a jpg - all a bit of a chew but it’s a work around.

 

Interesting. Will give that a go when I get a minute.

 

Cheers Mike

[Skipman]

10 hours ago, seaforths said:

 

Mike, is it one of those cds that you open with a piece of software called ERS Mapping? If so, you can’t do a ‘save as’ but you can do an ‘export as’ and export it as a png file and open it in MS Paint and then save as a jpg - all a bit of a chew but it’s a work around.

 

It's ER Mapper/Viewer. It won't allow me to do that. I can print to paper but that's it. Tried to print as microsoft pdf. Looks like it's doing that but cannot find the file.

 

Mike

[seaforths]

Sorry Mike, just fought my way through the books piled up like stalagmites on the floor to get onto my desktop for a while. Apologies, I was trying to tell you from memory but memory it seems was letting me down. Use the select tool to get the bit of map you want. Click on file and select save as. In the box that comes up there's a drop down, select Windows bmp and then click the little dot to save to file. Change the save folder to your pictures location or wherever, when it comes up. When you click OK or whatever it says, another box comes up, don't change anything, just save it and then open MS Paint and open the bmp file and do a save as, jpg

 

I'm using the same piece of software, ER Mapper/Viewer...is this the bit of map??

 

[Skipman]

Hi seaforths. Will give that a go.

 

Yes, that's exactly the part of the map I mentioned.

 

Cheers Mike

[seaforths]

18 minutes ago, Skipman said:

Hi seaforths. Will give that a go.

 

Yes, that's exactly the part of the map I mentioned.

 

Cheers Mike

 

When you click the drop down, you can see it gives a couple of options to save as jpg files - but it lies so just ignore those options and go for the bmp. Sorry about the confusion.

 

I would be going down the route of accessing the British Red Cross Enquiry Lists to see the names of those missing from both units. They might be available in a larger library but if not, you can buy the reprints from Naval and Military Press. They started printing them in 1915 but I’m assuming they included the names of those from 1914. Sometimes, poking around in what happened to a man’s comrades can be a useful source of information. I only have the lists for 1918. I copied info from the earlier lists but pretty sure I only copied Highlanders.

 

I will try to pick my way through the carnage of books again later and see what I’ve got for 1915. I don’t have a respite break until March so I can’t get to a bigger library in Aberdeen or inverness.

 

The other issue is the reliability of the information but the BRC must have thought there was something in it to pursue it with the IRC. It is possible they got the information from a wounded Cheshire. They were retreating in chaos and under fire. Disoriented men wandered quite a distance becoming mixed in with other units. It is possible that if he was with a group of Cheshire men and they came under fire, he could have been left behind as badly wounded...

[B EVERTON]

Just to demonstrate how possible false trails can detract from the ultimate goal I just happened to look on Forces War Records and noticed there were 3 records all with the correct details, however, several lines down there was E Everton 7548 etc etc 'Missing 10/4/1916????

I contacted them and asked they check out how this came about (typing error with the date maybe???) Interesting to see the reply.

I still feel the connection to Suspicious Case will provide some if not all the answers but having studied the Battle of Mons in some detail and the terrible losses suffered by the Cheshire's I cannot discount the theory that this alone explains the reference to the Cheshire's on the ICRC Card and Ernest's connection to them, it is totally unlikely to be Aisne.

Will be requesting the Worcestershire Archives to research any records they have on Ernest other than those already posted online. The fee is £25 but could be a sound investment.

Brian

[seaforths]

This is an example of entries from the British Red Cross, Wounded and Missing Enquiry List for May 1915 (I've removed the men's names and unit) and probably the earliest one that they produced. I do or did have a list of those produced but would struggle to locate it at the moment. Unfortunately, I only have the pages relating to Seaforth but it shows some detail where the Red Cross had leads. Obviously, some of these date from 1914:

 

[B EVERTON]

I did go on that exact Website and entered Ernest's name in the Search section but it came back with zero results.

The more 'possibles' I eliminate narrows down the search area but never any answers. Good job I had grey hair before I started all this,

Brian

[B EVERTON]

On 07/02/2019 at 12:10, Keith_history_buff said:

 

This is a great picture of him pre-war, wearing what I believe to be a 1903 pattern bandolier. (I'm not an expert on kit.)

Given that he was in the militia (presumably until it was disbanded in 1908 and replaced by the SR), it seems highly likely that he would have continued in the Special Reserve. If he had moved in the mean time, there may be a county regiment closer  to his new address. (I have come across a man in the TF. He joined the Hampshire Regiment in Gosport, whilst a student teacher, and despite moving to London, he continued to attend their annual camps. Had war not broken out, he may well have joined a London Regiment TF unit at the end of his 4 year period).

In some instances of the BWM / VM medal rolls, the rolls are segregated into Regular, then Special Reserve terms of service. Unfortunately, this was not the case for the Worcestershires.

It all makes for an interesting story.

Do you know if he has a card in the Western Front Association's dataset? I am not an Ancestry & Fold3 subscriber.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61588

Thanks,

Keith

Further research now shows how correct you were given the following:

Ernest Everton enlisted as Private 6946 3rd Battalion South Staffordshire Regiment 13th August 1902.

His attestation paper states 17 years & 10 months old @ Whittington Barracks, Lichfield and a Reservist.

Full details given on Remember The Fallen website.

Brian

[B EVERTON]

I have received a reply back from The Worcestershire Regiment Archives in relation to the Suspicious Case reference on Ernest's Medal Index.

Although they confirmed many of their records were destroyed in the London WW2 bombing the researcher was confident that in early 1914 it was bad practice by the Regiment to regard any unconfirmed reports of MIA as 'suspicious' until either remains or witnesses/organisations were able to provide evidence to the contrary.

The practice of using this terminology was ceased as 'disrespectful' and 'inaccurate' and replaced by 'Missing in Action-Presumed Dead' but earlier references were not deleted.

The Worcestershire Regiment officially regard Ernest's fate as MIA.

The poor quality of Regimental reporting regarding casualties begin to call into question the accuracy of other records taken at the time such as Roll Calls. I am no expert but various sources suggest that many documented Roll Calls were largely based on Platoon reports to HQ rather than a general stand up headcount due to the circumstances at the time and platoons spread across various forward trenches dealing with daily losses.

The energy put into just staying alive far exceeded that of solving the individual fate of others I would suggest.

In my mind I am convinced that the possible answer to Ernest's fate is either the Regimental version or the ICRC which I now give greater attention.

The real answer to either would be the Roll Call's which would prove his whereabouts on a given date but as they give numbers and not names of the missing I doubt an answer can be found there and as suggested on this Forum he could have been with the Cheshire's anytime from Mons (23rd Aug) to Aisne (21st Sept)

I accepted from the start that there is no resolution to Ernest's fate and I have discovered no hard facts to alter this but the journey has been a positive challenge.

Brian.

 

 

 

 

 

[Skipman]

Thanks for the update Brian and an excellent post. You never know, some clue might turn up somewhere.

 

Mike

[B EVERTON]

Thanks Mike, this is not the end of my journey but time to sit back and digest what I have discovered so far.

Interestingly I discovered from a contact in Canada that Canadian troops were very unhappy with reference to their missing as AWOL and that too was changed to MIA at some point.

On a second exchange with the ICRC Archives they were adamant that the Index Card on Ernest was a reply to the families request and not the fathers version which they tell me was never retained following a response. They point out that (1) It is written in French not English. (2) The obvious mistakes in translation from the original regarding Fathers Initial (J not T) and the address which is correct but totally mixed up and mis-spelt. They further maintain it was taken from a 'field report' which sadly no longer exists either.

I think all this is a classic case of Blind Faith as neither the Worcesters or the ICRC have documents to prove either version.

I am happy however that the 'Suspicious Case' has now been resolved and for me that means the most.

Brian

 

[crackingbloke]

Regarding Ernest Everton being with the Cheshire's - Ernest himself wrote to his parents advising them that he had become detached from his regiment, but evaded capture, stating that he was with the 1st Cheshire's. His parents received this letter from him on the 14th October 1914.