ICRC Index Cards

[B EVERTON]

This is my first visit to this forum and I am hoping the more experienced members on here can advise me.

My Grandfather Private 7548 Ernest Everton 3rd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment was reported Missing in Action-Presumed Dead on 21/9/14 following the Battle of Aisne.

I have over the years gathered virtually, if not, every military record concerning my Grandfather and some suggesting he was 'co-opted' into the Cheshire Regiment as a straggler following the battle.

He has no known grave but is remembered on the La Ferte Sous Jouarre Memorial, because of his death he never returned to his Regiment but purely by chance I came across an ICRC Index Card in Prisoners Of WW1 on their website (EVERTON. E) .Index GM799 in response to Ernest's father contacting the Red Cross about his fate.

The index (if accurate) records his full correct details and mentions the Cheshire Regiment but does not reveal where this info was gathered but states OCT? I contacted the ICRC Archives who acknowledged the Index but the actually report it was taken from was never retained and is lost to history. There are no PA entries on the Index.

The Regimental Historian of The Cheshire Regiment was very helpful but regards ICRC Cards as suspect at best, If accurate it may suggest my grandfather may have been a prisoner but if not where did they get information unknown to the Worcestershire Regiment of his actual fate. Ernest either died on the battlefield or as a prisoner, either way he never returned home.

Any comments of suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Brian Everton.

[AOK4]

This is the card: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/15/01/C_G1_E_15_01_0029/C_G1_E_15_01_0029_0335_0.JPG/

 

[charlie2]

The information on the card is that supplied by whoever enquired as to his fate.

Charlie

[B EVERTON]

9 hours ago, charlie2 said:

The information on the card is that supplied by whoever enquired as to his fate.

Charlie

The ICRC confirmed that a Field Operative (Red Cross) supplied the information in a report that was then Indexed, the original report discarded to history.

As the index is listed under WW1 Prisoners of War what can be assumed from this (Factual or False Trail)

The info regarding Cheshire Regiment was never known to his Regiment so where would the Red Cross obtain this info as they did not confirm his status at the time??

His father & Regiment were completely unaware of his true fate.

Brian

[B EVERTON]

10 hours ago, AOK4 said:

This is the card: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/15/01/C_G1_E_15_01_0029/C_G1_E_15_01_0029_0335_0.JPG/

 

Thank you for the link, I already have a copy(plus translation) which merely provides far more questions than answers.

Trying to solve a 105 year old mystery was never going to be easy and my relative inexperience in such matters is not helpful.

Hopefully suggestions and guideance on this Forum may help in some way.

Brian

[Keith_history_buff]

This reads to me like:

Your grandfather is reported missing by the army to his NoK. Your great-grandfather contacts the Red Cross, passing on the details that he knows, in the hope that they can determine if he is a prisoner, but they found nothing.

There's a similar scenario with this thread:

 

What I find more interesting is the reference to the 3rd Battalion. Have you been able to determine from the medal roll whether your grandfather was a Regular in the Army Reserve, or whether he was in the Special Reserve?

Thanks, Keith

[Skipman]

I was just looking at his 1914 Star Roll and it says "Missing 21/9/1914 Suspicious Case"

 

Mike

[B EVERTON]

10 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

This reads to me like:

Your grandfather is reported missing by the army to his NoK. Your great-grandfather contacts the Red Cross, passing on the details that he knows, in the hope that they can determine if he is a prisoner, but they found nothing.

There's a similar scenario with this thread:

 

What I find more interesting is the reference to the 3rd Battalion. Have you been able to determine from the medal roll whether your grandfather was a Regular in the Army Reserve, or whether he was in the Special Reserve? 

Thanks, Keith

Hi Keith, it is my understanding he was a Special Reserve as he did have normal employment status and was 'called up' You are quite correct concerning how the Index Card was generated but the mystery is the reference to the Cheshire Regiment as not even his regiment were aware of this at the time so do I assume the Red Cross added this detail and where or who from?

[B EVERTON]

11 hours ago, Skipman said:

I was just looking at his 1914 Star Roll and it says "Missing 21/9/1914 Suspicious Case"

 

Mike

Hi Skipman, I also have this to resolve. I contacted the Worcestershire Regimental Archives only last week who promised to look into the reference. The writing in blue was apparently added much later according to the date recorded and cancels out the original verdict. I now await official documentation from battalion records to clarify.

Brian

[Keith_history_buff]

Quote

Soldier No. 7548 of the 3rd Worcester Regiment, with the 1st Cheshire Regt, Comp. C, since the retreat from Mons. Reported missing since Oct.

Reply to Mr J Everton, 21 Sheld Lane, Oldswinford, Stourbridge

My interpretation of this is that it is a summary of the original correspondence from the enquirer.

It seems to me as though your great grandfather had perhaps heard that a number of men from the regiment were separated from their unit, which I gather was commonplace, and found themselves with a battalion from another regiment. Were there stragglers from the Worcesters that were thereafter captured whilst being with the 1st Cheshires?

[Skipman]

Is it possible he survived the war. Have you checked for s death certificate?

 

Mike

[ss002d6252]

The effects were paid out in April 1920 so, if he did survive, he was still though to be dead in April 1920.

 

It is odd though that his estate wasn't sorted by the Army until 1920- ordinarily 6 months or so was long enough to have declared someone dead rather than missing so there must have been some doubt.

 

Craig

Edited 6 February , 2019 by ss002d6252

[Skipman]

I don't have a subscription to FindMyPast at the moment but there may be some entries worth checking Click

 

Mike

[Keith_history_buff]

What I have seen on index cards, where an enquiry has been received, is the following:

A summary of the request is typed up on the card. Written in ink is a "summary so far" of the POW's movements. If there is nothing further on a typed card, it is indicative that no further information was found by the ICRC from prisoner lists or the like. By a process of elimination, a soldier is deemed missing in action presumed killed, in the absence of any POW documentation.

Do you have a date from either local newspapers or The Times as to when he was officially announced as missing? I seem to recall this would be about two months after the event.

[Keith_history_buff]

14 minutes ago, Skipman said:

I don't have a subscription to FindMyPast at the moment but there may be some entries worth checking Click

 

Mike

 

Prior to joining the Special Reserve, it looks like he was in the South Staffordshire Regiment's militia battalion, and his service record in WO 96 has survived.

[ss002d6252]

I assume he was the 1885 Ernest Harry Everton living at 2 Cottage Street, Kingswinford, on the 1911 census with his wife, Mary Ann (Birth records seem to show he was actually born in 1884)

 

Craig

[David_Underdown]

13 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

What I find more interesting is the reference to the 3rd Battalion. Have you been able to determine from the medal roll whether your grandfather was a Regular in the Army Reserve, or whether he was in the Special Reserve?

Thanks, Keith

 

Except in the Worcestershires 3rd (and even 4th) battalion were regular battalions, it was 5th and 6th battalions that were (Extra) Special Reserve http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/worcestershire-regiment/

[B EVERTON]

23 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

My interpretation of this is that it is a summary of the original correspondence from the enquirer.

It seems to me as though your great grandfather had perhaps heard that a number of men from the regiment were separated from their unit, which I gather was commonplace, and found themselves with a battalion from another regiment. Were there stragglers from the Worcesters that were thereafter captured whilst being with the 1st Cheshires?

At the moment yours is my preferred theory, the 1st Battalion Cheshire Regiment were positioned on the flank of the Worcesters. It is recorded that the Cheshire's also took in stragglers from the Essex Regiment but these were never documented individually due to the circumstances at the time. Only the ICRC knew Ernest was at some point with the Cheshires and seem to suggest he went missing from them in October (Prisoner????) or killed. Whatever his fate he never returned home to wife and family but I am driven to discover what I can limited by my lack of experience in military matters such as this.

Brian

[B EVERTON]

23 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The effects were paid out in April 1920 so, if he did survive, he was still though to be dead in April 1920.

 

It is odd though that his estate wasn't sorted by the Army until 1920- ordinarily 6 months or so was long enough to have declared someone dead rather than missing so there must have been some doubt.

 

Craig

Every answer generates far more questions, I agree that all seems unusual but too many possibles exist. I think he was taken in by the Cheshires and again reported 'missing' in October (Prisoner or Dead) He never returned home to wife & family is the only known factor so he either died in captivity or on the battlefield. How do I check German Records of POW's and Death in Captivity???

Brian

[B EVERTON]

23 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

 

Prior to joining the Special Reserve, it looks like he was in the South Staffordshire Regiment's militia battalion, and his service record in WO 96 has survived.

Thanks Kieth, I will check out WO96 shortly. This is Ernest.

[B EVERTON]

23 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

I assume he was the 1885 Ernest Harry Everton living at 2 Cottage Street, Kingswinford, on the 1911 census with his wife, Mary Ann (Birth records seem to show he was actually born in 1884)

 

Craig

Thats correct Craig, Born Dec1884. I have his full life history from birth up to 'Missing in Action'

[charlie2]

Brian,

The only information held by the ICRC is on the index card posted by AOK4 and which you already have.

If you want to look for yourself enter Everton in the name box https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search

 

Charlie

[B EVERTON]

Thanks Charlie, that's where I found the Index Card from initially.

All the responses I am getting from this Forum is very heartwarming, I realise I may never find the truth about Ernest and my lack of direct experience in this type of research is my greatest barrier but something I cannot explain keeps driving me on as if eventually all will become clear somehow. I have traced my Family Tree back to 1700 in great detail but the effort involved does not compare with this single project. Each part of the jigsaw is slowly falling into place.

Brian

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, B EVERTON said:

Only the ICRC knew Ernest was at some point with the Cheshires and seem to suggest he went missing from them in October (Prisoner????) or killed.

 

Hi Brian,
I am at pains here to stress that the ICRC would only know whatever the requestor has told them. They are the passive recipients of info. By definition, they do not have a military intelligence system by which they are analysing the dispositions of every battalion.

I am going to digress slightly, but there may be some parallels with this scenario.

When the Royal Navy went ahead with a raid on Zeebrugge on 23 April 1918, it used a battalion of Royal Marines, and in addition an ad-hoc unit of men named the Seamen Storming Party. This numbered 200 men, and they came from 15-20 different ships from the Grand Fleet.

As I understand it, the men of the SSP were quartered aboard a depot ship. Upon their return from the raid, the men picked up their duffel bags and proceeded on a week's leave prior to returning to their units. By definition, if a duffle bag remained, its owner must be killed, captured, or in hospital.

There was a lot of confusion as to the whereabouts of "missing" men. There were several scenarios whereby the Admiralty informed the next of kin that their man was missing and they knew nothing further. At the same time, there were letters sent - uncensored? - by colleagues, offering their condolences and mentioning the circumstances in which they died. (One such example is that of J/26466 Able Seaman Thomas George Stone.)

Given that your grandfather was a Special Reservist, it is likely that his army colleagues were perhaps friends and neighbours, and knew the family from peacetime. This is pure speculation, but it could be the case that a letter was written from a hospital, and it mentioned that although he went missing, it was known that a number of stragglers ended up with the 1st Cheshires. The letter may have concluded that perhaps he was with the 1st Cheshires and had ended up as a POW, and that it may be worth contacting both the War Office and the Red Cross, to determine if they have any further info.

Hope this helps - in the absence of anything concrete, it is the case that speculation on what happened is all that we can do, and by putting some theories out there, they can be considered as possibilities, or unlikely.

Thanks, Keith

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, B EVERTON said:

How do I check German Records of POW's and Death in Captivity???

 

Brian,

Just in case my last post wasn‘t clear, the German records of deaths in captivity  and PoWs are the ones held by the ICRC, there are no other German records.

 

Charlie