RTE documentary - War of Independence documentary will tell us ‘the history we think we know, but don’t’

[TGM]

This may interest some:

 

 

The Irish Revolution, RTÉ1, 9.35pm, Monday, February 4th

 

Edited 4 February , 2019 by TGM

[David_Underdown]

It sounds like it will be broadcast in the UK from March (I think that was in a Guardian article on the series yesterday)

[TGM]

I registered for RTE's equivalent of BBC iPlayer.

[593jones]

Looks like someone beat Lucy Worsley to the punch!  I'm sure she could have produced a programme on Irish history's biggest fibs.  Perhaps she would have dressed up as Constance Markiewicz 

[Jervis]

On 05/02/2019 at 11:10, David_Underdown said:

It sounds like it will be broadcast in the UK from March (I think that was in a Guardian article on the series yesterday)

 

RTE are running two war of independence related series at the moment. The above

mentioned historical documentary and a fictional drama series called "Resistance" set in the 1919 - 1922 Dublin. I believe the guardian reported on the later. 

[TGM]

On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 20:00, 593jones said:

Looks like someone beat Lucy Worsley to the punch!  I'm sure she could have produced a programme on Irish history's biggest fibs.  Perhaps she would have dressed up as Constance Markiewicz 

Has she done the biggest fibs in English history?

I'm with MacGregor on when it comes to our own history.

[593jones]

1 hour ago, TGM said:

Has she done the biggest fibs in English history?

I'm with MacGregor on when it comes to our own history.

 

Indeed she has, in 2017, British history, anyway, if not specifically English:  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6396382/

 

Always entertaining, Dr. Worsley, I just try to convince myself that the dressing up is not just to grab attention.

 

[TGM]

On 16/02/2019 at 22:30, 593jones said:

 

Indeed she has, in 2017, British history, anyway, if not specifically English:  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6396382/

 

Always entertaining, Dr. Worsley, I just try to convince myself that the dressing up is not just to grab attention.

 

Thanks.

 

Missed it. Full details - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bqdzl

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 16/02/2019 at 21:00, TGM said:

I'm with MacGregor on when it comes to our own history.

Yep, me too.

In my book, whatever he says, goes.

Here he is discussing  the controversy regarding the return of the Elgin marbles with the Minister for Culture:

 

 

[IPT]

 

I'm disappointed to see such a serious subject treated frivolously.

 

You are well aware which McGregor was being referenced.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GWF1967]

39 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

 

 

 

No wonder he scared the wits out of Peter Rabbit and Co. 

[TGM]

I can't forgive McGregor and the director for the casting of Obi-Wan.

Edited 19 February , 2019 by TGM

[BullerTurner]

Resistance and its precursor, Rebellion, aren't recommended to historians of delicate constitution.  The production values are quite excellent but I'm afraid it is a tad bodice-ripping, thud-and-blunder in parts.  It does make Dev out to be a villain, which is quite acceptable - my wife's family (the Mayo bunch not the Dublin ones) haven't a kind word to say for him!  They may be biased losing an uncle and the leg of an aunt in the Civil War.

 

however if you like a romance, set adjacent to history and have an interest in the era, then it isn't sooo bad.  Just don't expect deep insight into either the War of Independence or the Civil War - for that try the IDF BMH archive!

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Of cause Ireland was not the only country under going the trails of Civil war it was common in many countries at that time, including Turkey, Russia and Germany to name a few.

 

The end of the 1914 18 war did not stop the killing, as Empires crashed and Peoples sorted them selves out?

 

S.B

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Finally caught up with part 1 last night on Yew Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T4xoz070Fg

 

Two points:

1) I am used to the London based media mispronouncing and mis-spelling Welsh words, but it was a bit of an eye opener to see  "Frongoch" spelled   '"Frongach" and pronounced mostly as " Phrongock" by the speakers in the documentary on RTE,  especially as the place is of such historic importance to the Republic. In fact, most of the time , the Tricolour and Red Dragon fly alongside one another at the memorial  where the camp used to stand.

 

2) The documentary said that De Valera was at Frongoch. Other sources say otherwise Wikipedia

[depaor01]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Finally caught up with part 1 last night on Yew Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T4xoz070Fg

 

Two points:

1) I am used to the London based media mispronouncing and mis-spelling Welsh words, but it was a bit of an eye opener to see  "Frongoch" spelled   '"Frongach" and pronounced mostly as " Phrongock" by the speakers in the documentary on RTE,  especially as the place is of such historic importance to the Republic. In fact, most of the time , the Tricolour and Red Dragon fly alongside one another at the memorial  where the camp used to stand.

 

2) The documentary said that De Valera was at Frongoch. Other sources say otherwise Wikipedia

How should Frongoch be pronounced? I always use the "phrongoch" version!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Just now, depaor01 said:

How should Frongoch be pronounced? I always use the "phrongoch" version!

 F in Welsh is ALWAYS pronounced as you would pronounce  V in English.

 

The 'Ph' sound - as in 'Phone' or 'Free State' is spelt "Ff' in Welsh.

 

And of course the Welsh 'Ch' is NEVER pronounced "CK".

It's the 'chhhhhhhhh'    sound your soft palate makes when you try to dislodge mucus  from the back of the throat.

So it's pronounced 'Vron-gochhhhhhh", NEVER Phron-gock ! 

 

[depaor01]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 F in Welsh is ALWAYS pronounced as you would pronounce  V in English.

 

The 'Ph' sound - as in 'Phone' or 'Free State' is spelt "Ff' in Welsh.

 

And of course the Welsh 'Ch' is NEVER pronounced "CK".

It's the 'chhhhhhhhh'    sound your soft palate makes when you try to dislodge mucus  from the back of the throat.

So it's pronounced 'Vron-gochhhhhhh", NEVER Phron-gock ! 

 

Very informative.  Thank you Dai. I will store this info in my box of pedant tools ready for use against transgressors.

Dave

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

13 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

Very informative.  Thank you Dai. I will store this info in my box of pedant tools ready for use against transgressors.

Dave

Welsh linguistic pronunciation is easy as it is one of the most phonetic languages around. So few  diphthongs, it's not worth bothering about.

 

So if you have an extremely small postage stamp onto  which to write out these rules, you will have a very powerful pedants' toolbok indeed.

Of the 28 letters in the Welsh Language, 27 can only be pronounced one way. EVER. No ifs no buts. One way only.

The only exception is Y  which can be pronounced only 2 ways - Uhh, or  as in 'Hymn'  (Except in South Wales when it's 'ee'.

 

F, Ff, Ph, Ch - we've covered above. ALWAYS pronounced that way

 

The following letters are all  ALWAYS pronounced as in English:

B,D, G, L, M,N,O,P, S,T, & W.

 

The other 12 letters:

A- ALWAYS as in 'Lard'  (long) or 'Hat' (short). NEVER EVER as in 'Mate'

C- ALWAYS hard as in ' Cat'

Dd- ALWAYS as you would say the 'Th' in 'The'

E - ALWAYS as you would say the 'ay' in  'Say' (long) or   short as in 'Pen'

Ng- as in Mao Tse Tung

H - ALWAYS ALWAYS hard. As in ...'Hard'

I - ALWAYS   as in 'RIo'

Ll - The easiest letter to pronounce. Put your tongue in the position as if you are going to say the letter 'L', (The tip ususlly behind your upper right 2nd         incisor tooth/and /or canine, then gently blow out of the left corner of your mouth. It's NEVER ' THL', It's NEVER 'CL', it's NEVER 'SL'. Easy.

Rh- As in Rheumatism. That's 'R-Heumatism', not 'Reumatism', the 'H' is pronounced, it's not just there to look pretty.

R- Lucy Worsley  and Woy Hodgkinson would have trouble with this one. It should be trilled at the front of the mouth, with the tip of the tongue, and  not in that unpleasant French way at the back of the soft palate.

Th - ALWAYS as in 'Thank',  NEVER as in 'The'

U-  ALWAYS as  the 'i'  in  'in' except perhaps a bit longer. In South Wales, it's more 'ee'

 

So there you are. You can learn those rules in five minutes, and after that you can read aloud, correctly any Welsh book or paper.

Or railway station sign...

 

 

 

[clive_hughes]

Dai, 

I think that has stunned them into awed silence.  With me, of course, you're preaching to the converted Dai bach!  However I must confess I left my dipthong on the beach in Corfu the other week...if you find another that might fit could you let me know please?  

 

...Meanwhile back on the Irish trail, I recall reading a document many years ago in the Bangor University archives, in which the writer described (at second hand I think) a Welsh soldier talking to passengers in a train carriage.  He was a guard at Frongoch and had been escorting a group of Irish prisoners, possibly new arrivals.  One of them had turned to him and asked him in Welsh why, as a Celt, he was fighting for the English?  The guard was surprised to be addressed in his own language, and intrigued by the very concept of England being the enemy.  It got him quite excited apparently, enough so to tell the story to his fellow train passengers!  I have a feeling the document was among the papers gathered for an inter-war Carnegie endowment History of Wales in WW1 that was never completed.  

 

No reason why an Irishman shouldn't be able to learn to understand and speak Welsh; despite the differences in "P" and "Q" Celtic languages, the grammar and some vocabulary is the same.  Having said which, I can't understand it (or Scots Gaelic) when I happen to hear it spoken.  

[depaor01]

No stunned silence here, just a day's work getting in the way of my Celtic enlightenment.  Thanks for the guide Dai, and Clive's contribution.  Nevertheless I still find Scots Gaelic easier to understand than Welsh.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir!

Dave

Edited 31 May , 2019 by depaor01

[clive_hughes]

Dave,

That's because you're a "Q" Celt...in theory, you'd find Manx easier as well.  Whereas us "P" Celts have more of an affinity with Cornish and Breton...allegedly!  Not sure about the spoken word, but from the odd samples of those two written tongues I've seen, I'd agree.

 

This may be a digression, but years ago I read in the autobiography of an officer of the Worcesters Regt. that on one occasion he and his men had caught De Valera and brought him in.  He was somewhat disgusted to learn later that the authorities had just quietly let him go again.  See E.C.Barton, Let The Boy Win His Spurs (The Research Publishing Company, London 1976).   This sounds like a "political" decision, but is it likely it happened that way?  

 

Clive  

 

 

[David_Underdown]

Surely w is not pronounced as in English? It's a vowel in Welsh! Bws would be a very odd to pronounce... (for anglophones it means bus, but I think a bit more like oo than uh)

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

26 minutes ago, David_Underdown said:

Surely w is not pronounced as in English? It's a vowel in Welsh! Bws would be a very odd to pronounce... (for anglophones it means bus, but I think a bit more like oo than uh)

When would you pronounce 'W' as 'uh' in English?

 

27 minutes ago, David_Underdown said:

Surely w is not pronounced as in English?

It is, exactly.

In English, you can have it long as in 'Water' , you pronounce it the same in  the Welsh 'Dwr'.  (Water). This approximates to 'oo'.

In English you can also have it short as in 'With', it's the same short 'W' in the Welsh 'Bws'. This rhymes with the Northern English pronunciation of 'us', (as in 'Race us whippets')  with a proper 'S' rather than the southern 'uz'.

 

47 minutes ago, David_Underdown said:

It's a vowel in Welsh!

That's correct.

47 minutes ago, David_Underdown said:

Bws would be a very odd to pronounce.

Why would you think that?

Different maybe...

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Getting back on topic, I must say that episodes 1 & 2 of RTE's "The Irish Revolution" was very good.

Unfortunately Episode 3 does not seem to be on RTE Player, nor on YouTube at the moment.

 

Anybody know where else it can be seen?