Petty Officer H Wise - was he (and who else Naval ) inside Kut el Amara ?

[PJS]

12 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Is it me or has my spreadsheet in post 28 disappeared ?

Charlie

 

The screen shot of the spreadsheet is still there ...

[seaJane]

27 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

John Mathews aged 24, RN 8960 at Angora as a PoW, taken at Kut 29/4/16

I can find no exact match, but these are the closest near misses (right age). You may be able to see a relevant ship in the preview.

 

There are a few more John [middle name] Matthews of the right age whom I haven't included; I added 1891 and 1892 in turn to the search terms. Can link you to the whole list if you prefer.

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7283838

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6861153

 

 

 

Edited 6 February , 2019 by seaJane

[charlie962]

9 minutes ago, PJS said:

The screen shot of the spreadsheet is still there ..

Thanks. It has just re-appeared (perhaps Mods did something clever ?). It was only this thread that went wobbly.

 

9 minutes ago, seaJane said:

There are a few more

Sj, Thanks.  I've already tried Discover, Ancestry and FindmyPast without success.

[seaJane]

I tried searching on 8960 ADM and that raised several records but none attached to that name, not even to Matthew John/s...

[charlie962]

This is the entry on the ICRC backing sheet. the dittos are for captured 'Kut 29/4/16' . ICRC sheets are full of errors so things like 'soldat' shouldn't be taken literally! Note that the service number was corrected. The number on the rhs is his camp number.

 

               

[seaJane]

Is "Common Windsor" an address?

[seaJane]

Near miss on the service number. Right age.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6853217

[charlie962]

It probably should read Windsor Common and is NOK address. Often corrupted going from phoenetic into Turkish French into French French into Engilsh! I am trying Absent voters but nothing so far.

 

 

While I think of it, don't try googling Mathews and Turkey- the results are bootiful!

Edited 6 February , 2019 by charlie962

[seaJane]

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

While I think of it, don't try googling Mathews and Turkey- the results are bootiful!

[charlie962]

But do try Matthews as well as Mathews.

[seaJane]

TNA will let you wildcard Mat*hew*.

 

I expect you've tried 1901/1911 census?

[charlie962]

Tried without success but I'm not (quite) perfect. These men all earned 14/5 stars and often prewar service. At 24 in 1916 he may well have been absent 1911 census ?

[horatio2]

51 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Near miss on the service number. Right age.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6853217

Good trace, sJ. He was taken at Kut.

[charlie962]

And what's more he was one of Tudway's on Sumana ! Well done. Another Survivor found. (makes 3)

Edited 6 February , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

And guess what that has lead me to find- Casualty List 1916:

                  

 

Several new names to check out. Great.

Charlie

[charlie962]

Skeet is another Sumana man. But died 30/9/16 as PoW at Tarsus. His CWGC says 'Pembroke' rather than Alert.

[seaJane]

Would that be because Skeet was Chatham-based (Ch. as above, home of Pembroke) and Alert was for other than Chatham?

I may be talking through my hat here, it's just a guess.

[charlie962]

I think I'll find the men I haven't picked up previously are either survivors or on CWGC as Pembroke. Note Wise is not on this list!

 

[charlie962]

I am in the process of updating my spreadsheet. The Casualty List I found yesterday confirms the suppositions 'Kut or not' that that I noted in the previous iteration.

 

Current state of play:

  2 men died during the siege (known)

 2 men ( or more) were exchanged immediately after the surrender (of which I have 2 possibles)( these would not be on Missing list)

 31 men (known) went in to captivity from which only 3 seem to have emerged alive at the end of the war. A terrible %age and worse than for any of the Army units.

 

I note that the records for Dunnington, 302957 and Hanson J13904 show them as Espiegle (Nunn's flagship until...- he changed ship in early 1916) until 22/4/16 then Pembroke 1 for Hanson and (I cannot read it) for Dunnington. Can anyone make sense of this for me please? This link with Espiegle is not disimilar to that shown on Wise's record  but he transfers out on 8/3/16?

 

I think Wilton was probably 'Exchange 2' ie from Baghdad in Aug/Sep 1916.

 

Many thanks for help so far. I think we are not far off now on all the names.

 

Charlie

[PJS]

50 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I am in the process of updating my spreadsheet. The Casualty List I found yesterday confirms the suppositions 'Kut or not' that that I noted in the previous iteration.

 

Current state of play:

  2 men died during the siege (known)

 2 men ( or more) were exchanged immediately after the surrender (of which I have 2 possibles)( these would not be on Missing list)

 31 men (known) went in to captivity from which only 3 seem to have emerged alive at the end of the war. A terrible %age and worse than for any of the Army units.

 

I note that the records for Dunnington, 302957 and Hanson J13904 show them as Espiegle (Nunn's flagship until...- he changed ship in early 1916) until 22/4/16 then Pembroke 1 for Hanson and (I cannot read it) for Dunnington. Can anyone make sense of this for me please? This link with Espiegle is not disimilar to that shown on Wise's record  but he transfers out on 8/3/16?

 

I think Wilton was probably 'Exchange 2' ie from Baghdad in Aug/Sep 1916.

 

Many thanks for help so far. I think we are not far off now on all the names.

 

Charlie

 

I'm going to go with Proserpine ...

 

21 March 1916

Basra

Lat 30.5, Long 47.9

5.30am: Ship swung & fouled paddle steamer

10.15am: Weighed & proceeded as requisite for shifting berth

10.30am: Moored. HMS ESPIEGLE came alongside & secured {HMS ESPIEGLE was a Cadmus Class sloop launched in 1900, 6 x 4” guns}

Number on sick list = 3

 

 

Peter

 

[charlie962]

22 hours ago, PJS said:

I'm going to go with Proserpine ...

Peter, I agree, well spotted.

 

Nunn transferred his team from Espiegle to Proserpine on that day because Espiegle had become too small for the ever expanding administration ( where have I heard that excuse before ?). Espiegle left the area shortly after. So logically those on Espiegle's books who didn't sail with her would need transferring- Proserpine or a base ship Pembroke or Alert. The actual decision as to which ship transferred would be based on ... ? I note that Proserpine's deck log was mistakenly headed Espiegle several times in the days following the transfer -old habits etc. This may be why Dunnington's record has a corrected entry for Proserpine ?

 

Hanson and Dunnington have records clearly marked PoW Kut. That of Wise is not so marked but doesn't rule him out yet from being an immediate exchange ?

 

Hanson was a Signaller and presumably an important part of the link of the Naval Detachment in Kut with the outside world. Did Sumana have a wireless or did they have to use the Army's Marconi or pack-sets ? So perhaps the logic is that Hanson was lent by the Espiegle ?

 

Charlie

 

Edit. I've just posted an update of the spreadsheet in post28. It might need a magnifying glass! I will eventually post an index of names so that searches will find them and am happy to provide a copy of the original to anyone interested, once finished (or as far as I can go).

 

It is interesting confirmation that all the horseboatmen are SG or GLs or both. ie as I said earlier, gun crews were Navy but FOO was an RGA Officer.

 

And look at all those DSMs. Well earned, and not just for Kut but the many fierce actions beforehand.

Edited 8 February , 2019 by charlie962

[seaJane]

I think Moseley's Secrets of a Kuttite may talk about SUMANA and signalling. The book is on archive.org so should be searchable.

[PJS]

23 minutes ago, seaJane said:

I think Moseley's Secrets of a Kuttite may talk about SUMANA and signalling. The book is on archive.org so should be searchable.

 

Yes, there are plenty of references to SUMANA but nothing that I could find about a wireless or signalling.

https://archive.org/details/secretsofkuttite00mous/page/n8

 

I also searched the net for any photos of HM Armed Launch SUMANA or SHAITAN but came up blank.

 

Peter

[charlie962]

Thank you Peter and sJ, all useful stuff. Quite difficult sometimes to recall whose is an original account and who is quoting a second hand story.

 

I'm trying hard not to go off on a tangent by chasing too much detail at the moment. My objective is to come up with a list of names. By approaching from different angles (ie reading all these different accounts to find possible new search terms) I have found one or two other possibilities but nothing definite. I think I am missing one or two survivors and that is about all. The service records all survive but one has sometimes to work hard to interpret them. The potentially very useful Greenwich Museum project to index crewlists seems incomplete at the moment and excludes RNR,RNVR,RNAS etc.

 

It is a bit sad that the answer is not easily found. To me it says that the men are not remembered ?Townshend's and Sandes's listings of numbers by unit completely overlook the Royal Navy, but their narrative is full of praise! I suspect there are serious medal collectors out there who have detailed research on the Tigris fleet but I have not come across anything accessible on the web yet. But I might not be looking in the right place.

 

Charlie

[seaJane]

I was in contact briefly with the man who bought the medals of Surgeon Dermot Loughlin (Comet) via DNW but I can't remember what his focus was. Will investigate.