Petty Officer H Wise - was he (and who else Naval ) inside Kut el Amara ?

[charlie962]

The National Roll of the Great War gives me this:

 

H WISE  (PO 1st class)

He volunteered at the outbreak of war, and was posted to H.M.S. " Dalhousie," which vessel took part in many engagements and was present at the sinking of the " Konigsberg," and later proceeded to Mesopotamia, where he served under General Townshend and was besieged in Kut and was twice wounded. He was demobilised in April 1919, and holds the 1914-15 Star, and the General Service and Victory Medals. 60, Acme Road, North Watford.

 

Can anyone find his servicerecord for me, please - The link to Ancestry or FMP will suffice.

 

Thanks

Charlie

Edited 4 February , 2019 by charlie962

[seaJane]

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6917015

The Henry Wises are here - some with Henry as a second Christian name, one too young (b.1903).

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="ADM+188"+Wise%2C+Herbert

The Herbert Wises are here.

 

So far as I can see that's all the H Wises in the Register of Seaman's Services. It may be possible to make out DALHOUSIE on the preview of his record, or SUMANA, which as far as I know was the only naval vessel during the siege of Kut.

(I don't have access to FMP or Ancestry.)

[charlie962]

I've just been looking at the Svc Record for Henry Wise 151385 . It mentions Dalhousie and also Espiegle but how do the dates etc fit with the Nat Roll text ?

 

                     

 

Alert has a previous thread here

and a related thread on Dalhousie and Alert here

Edited 3 February , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Thanks Sj

 

I omitted the rank in my post 1 . He was PO 1st class.

 

151385 was also a PO 1st Class

 

I found him by looking at the RN Roll. Only poss candidates are:

          

 

What do the experts think?  What set me off on this path is that a PO and a Senior PO were under siege in Kut- or at least at the fall of Kut 29/4/16 were part of the 100 men exchanged as POWs- and would have been released early May 1916. But I don't have their names.

 

Charlie

          

Edited 3 February , 2019 by charlie962

[seaJane]

Re: 151385, Clio and Espiegle were both part of the Tigris force if I recall correctly. Not sure how the dates fit with his being part of the Kut siege, but maybe the moves were purely administrative?

 

[seaJane]

188903 may have Dalhousie at the foot of the first page of his record, I can't quite make it out from the Discovery catalogue preview.

Edited 3 February , 2019 by seaJane

[ARABIS]

19 minutes ago, seaJane said:

188903 may have Dalhousie at the foot of the first page of his record, I can't quite make it out from the Discovery catalogue preview.

Yes, 188903 Harry Wise was on the books of Dalhousie from 22/5/16 to 7/1/18.

[seaJane]

And 151385 Henry Wise on her books 22-31/5/16 as per the record above.

[ARABIS]

11 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

Yes, 188903 Harry Wise was on the books of Dalhousie from 22/5/16 to 7/1/18.

I should have added that he was on the gunboat Cranefly from 6/12/15 to 21/5/16.

[seaJane]

2 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

I should have added that he was on the gunboat Cranefly from 6/12/15 to 21/5/16.

Cranefly being another of the Tigris flotilla boats!

[charlie962]

Here is the bit for Harry 188903.

 

 

So both H Wise to Dalhousies' books 22/5/16 !  Both on the Tigris 1915/16.

But in neither case can I see any trace of  'wounded twice'  nor any suggestion of Kut or PoW.

The Nat Roll write up did say the 'Dalhousie, which vessel took part in many engagements'.. so maybe a bit of artistic licence as to whether Wise or the ship  was present at the Konigsberg scuttling July 1915 ??

 

 

Where do I find Casualty Lists for the Navy ? Have they been digitised ?

 

Charlie

 

 

 

Edited 3 February , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

The 1939 Register for 60 Acme Rd Watford, the address on the NatRoll entry, has Henry Wise PO 1st class with a birth date 16/1/1873.

The Service Record for  151385  Henry Wise has a birth date of 16/1/1874. 

So I conclude it must be him and one or other record has the year off by 1. Would he try to make to appear to the Navy as 18 rather than 19 ? He enlisted 16/1/1892. The births for Woolwich have a Q1  1873 for Henry Wise, mother Lovegrove.

 

But why would he be inside Kut for the siege ?

 

Charlie

Edited 3 February , 2019 by charlie962

[seaJane]

You'd need to identify the ships he was on when wounded, and then if you're lucky the Medical Officers' Journals may have survived. If you identify those ships let me know and I'll see if I can track down the MOJ.

 

If he was transferred to a hospital ship such as Varela or Medjidie (spelling?) he should appear on the muster list, which should be at Kew if it survived (which I have to say I'm not sanguine about).

 

Searching for the right spelling on Google brought up this, by coincidence: https://www.amazon.co.uk/WORLD-BRITISH-SOLDIERS-BASRA-HOSPITAL/dp/B002CIRLGE

 

[seaJane]

As I say, the only ship I actually recall as being at Kut was Sumana, which spent most of the time going back and forth across the river to the Woolpress, an outpost on the opposite bank to Kut. Search for her name on this page: https://norfolkinworldwar1.org/2016/04/28/the-2nd-battalion-of-the-norfolk-regiment-in-mesopotamia-march-1916/ 

[charlie962]

I know of the Sumana (and your admiration of Tudway!). But crew list won't have survived the surrender although the boat did. Espiegle was Nunn's ship, I think. Alert and Dalhousie seem to be administrative allocations.

 

Did the Navy not systematically publish Casualty Lists in the papers, like the Army ? I've tried FMP Newspapers as a search for Wise but not found him.

 

Good to see that photo link.

 

Thanks

Charlie

[charlie962]

Looking at his first ship of the war, it was the Armed Merchant Cruiser HMS Laconia, which did voyage along the African coast 1914/15 and whose seaplane seems at least to have photographed the Konigsberg. So that makes a bit more sense of one part of his write up. He will then have gone on to Mespot, Clio, Espiegle, Alert etc.

 

Naval history Net have typed up the Laconia Log Book. Wise gets a mention on 21 Aug 1915, the day he was transferred to Clio.

                         There was this old note on his service sheet-  

 

But the Siege ??

Charlie

Edited 3 February , 2019 by charlie962

[seaJane]

Trying to work out whether Clio saw action in the month after 21 August which might have involved H. Wise being wounded - knowing that E.C. Cookson was awarded the DSO in command of Clio before the VC action in which he was killed as commander of Comet in September.

[later]

Doesn't look like it:

http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-18-HMS_Clio.htm 30 August 1915

Basra

Lat 30.5, Long 47.9

6.0am: Hands employed fitting steam launches ready for leaving for up service up river

7.0am:RN launches left ship

10.0am: Captain, Lieutenant Commander, Surgeon & seven ratings left ship for service up river

 

Edited 3 February , 2019 by seaJane

[horatio2]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

He enlisted 16/1/1892.

Not correct. He enlisted on 9 October 1889 as a Boy 2nd Class. His 12-year engagement began on 16 January 1892, his 18th birthday.

Edited 3 February , 2019 by horatio2

[Raymond-dunn]

I believe the Royal Navy manned 4 converted horse boats which were anchored on the river outside Kut.
they had a crew of about 6 men each and were mounted with Guns to shell the turks.

All these navy men made pow's after the fall of Kut

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Not correct

Thank you. There is still the problem of in which year he was born- 1873 per 39 Register or 1874 per RN service. Normally men claim to be older rather than younger when enlisting ?

 

6 hours ago, Raymond-dunn said:

All these navy men made pow's after the fall of Kut

It is this list of men that I am after and cannot find. Any ideas ? Was Wise amongst them?

 

Charlie

 

Here is one I believe ? Stephen Page, Shown as Alert (Horseboats). Then at fall of Kut 29/4/16 as a PoW goes on to ¨Pembroke1 PoW list 24 ?  Is such a list accessible ?

          

 

Edited 4 February , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

and here is another although his Service Record Card says Alert then Horseboats, then Dalhousie and Pembroke. He seems to have survived imprisonment.

   Donald Main Laird RNR  A 5323.     DSM

                      

 

Charlie

 

edit:  what or where is Sheroo Ben Sheron ??

 

edit edit.  Same Gazette as Tudway's (well earned) DSO.

Edited 4 February , 2019 by charlie962

[horatio2]

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There is still the problem of in which year he was born- 1873 per 39 Register or 1874 per RN service. Normally men claim to be older rather than younger when enlisting ?

Since he enlisted as a boy seaman, when he signed his engagement papers his parent/guardian would have been required to sign a Parental Consent Form confirming his age and giving their permission for enlistment. It is, therefore, unlikely that both the boy and his parent would have conspired to give a false date of birth - and to what purpose? He would still have joined as a boy, aged 15 3/4 (dob 1874) or 16 3/4 (dob 1873) in October 1889.

[charlie962]

and a third man who was killed inside Kut 14/12/15 and buried there. His Service Record card only says 'Alert'

              Thomas Arron Burton A 7088

 

[charlie962]

A fourth man, also Alert (Horseboats) who died as PoW 20/5/16

    Frederick William Bray 136300

 

Extract from Ancestry (with thanks) record as linked above:-                                

An Aug 1919 Western Daily News Newspaper clipping says family had just been informed that he died 1916 of 'sunstroke' and was buried at Ctesiphon. A Kut PoW. Sunstroke - a kind word for something doubtless far worse.

 

I post these links and extracts in the hope that the various references might mean something to you Naval experts ?

Charlie

 

Edited 4 February , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

A fifth name (from the previous thread on Alert that I linked in post 1. Horatio was a contributor!

 

Henry Richard Thomas WOOLFORD, 207406, Alert (Horseboats)