brecknockshire batt south wales borders

[BIFFO]

I have the medals for 

Charles j Lewis  (T)1238

medal roll says 209107 mic says 200107,I I don't know what battalion he was in,

later joined the royal engineers  574437,

he was awarded 14 star-bwm-vm, he also has a mystery medal, any one know what this is

is it the royal engineers  T.F.E medal ?? if yes what is the T.F.E.medal 

[topgun1918]

The Territorial Force Efficiency Medal - awarded to non-commissioned officers and men for a minimum of 12 years service in the Territorial Force, providing they attended 12 annual training camps.  Previous service in other part-time forces including the Volunteer Force could count, while war service counted double.

 

Graeme

 

[Scalyback]

If he was Brecknock it can only be the 1st Battalion, who went to India at the beginning of the war and stayed out there. 

2nd line stayed in Wales and eventually merged with 2/7 RWF.

3rd line again stayed in Wales and later merged with one of the Monmouth reserve battalions. 

[Steven Broomfield]

But if he went to India he wouldn't have been eligible for a 14-15 Star (unless he transferred pretty swiftly) surely?

 

The 1st/1st Brecknocks went to Aden Dec '14 to August '15 so presumably that's the 14-15 Star entitlement.

 

 

Edited 1 February , 2019 by Steven Broomfield
Further information

[JimE]

Charles J Lewis

Medal Index card and rolls show

1/1 SW Bords T1238, SW Bords 200107, RE 574437 Cpl            

1914/15 star, BWM, Victory Medal

Disembarked 3-7-15 in theatre 5c (Aden) entry corrected from 29/10/14

Demobbed 3 June 1919

 

Brecknockshire Bn 1/1 S W Borderers went to India on 29/10/14 and remained there for the war, except leaving India on  3 December 1914 and arriving on 16 Dec in Aden, until August 1915 (Long Long Trail)

Presumably Lewis did not go with the main body to India but joined in Aden  in July 1915, where he qualified for the BWM and the 1914/1915 star

Edited 5 March , 2019 by JimE
Number incorrect

[Scalyback]

22 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

But if he went to India he wouldn't have been eligible for a 14-15 Star (unless he transferred pretty swiftly) surely?

 

The 1st/1st Brecknocks went to Aden Dec '14 to August '15 so presumably that's the 14-15 Star entitlement.

 

 

 

Brecknock battalion have the 15 star entitlement. 

 

Like Jim says! 

 

EDIT slightly off topic. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=VJu311&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=medalrolls&cp=0&_F00061C3=brecknockshire&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&uidh=epq&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=1&h=4799616&recoff=&ml_rpos=2

 

Any ideas why to see another mans card before issuing medals? Not seen that before. It is a Brecknock man. 

Edited 1 February , 2019 by Scalyback

[Keith_history_buff]

On 01/02/2019 at 22:12, JimE said:

Charles J Lewis

Medal Index card and rolls show

1/1 SW Bords T1238, SW Bords 200107, RE 574437 Cpl             (not found under 200907)

1914/15 star, BWM, Victory Medal

Disembarked 3-7-15 in theatre 5c (Aden) entry corrected from 29/10/14

Demobbed 3 June 1919

 

Brecknockshire Bn 1/1 S W Borderers went to India on 29/10/14 and remained there for the war, except leaving India on  3 December 1914 and arriving on 16 Dec in Aden, until August 1915 (Long Long Trail)

Presumably Lewis did not go with the main body to India but joined in Aden  in July 1915, where he qualified for the BWM and the 1914/1915 star

There's a peculiarity with Aden. It was deemed a Theatre of War with effect from 3rd July 1915. The Brecknocks were in Aden from 16 December 1914 to 5th August 1915. 

[Keith_history_buff]

From the 29th October 1914 - 2nd December 1914, the Brecknocks were in transit on the first log of their journey, taking the "Dilwara" from Southampton to Bombay.

The second leg, 3rd December 1914 - 16th December 1914, saw them taking the "Grantilly Castle" from Bombay to Aden.

Here's a link to an article in the Brecon County Times, online thanks to the National Library of Wales.

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3857488/3857491/28/

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a surviving service record for Sergeant Frederick James, 69, Brecknock Battalion, should anyone wish to see a service record for one of the men of the battalion.

Thanks, Keith

[BIFFO]

just seen your post Keith thank you for information 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Biffo, glad it helped. Yes I found it puzzling when I first encountered it!!!

[BIFFO]

An auctioneer from a nearby town came here with free valuations,I took these medals to him, I couldn't believe how low the price he said they were worth. Now looka I know anything is only worth the amount some one will pay ,have medals really fallen so low ? 

[BIFFO]

On 07/02/2019 at 23:34, Keith_history_buff said:

There's a peculiarity with Aden. It was deemed a Theatre of War with effect from 3rd July 1915. The Brecknocks were in Aden from 16 December 1914 to 5th August 1915. 

 

On 01/02/2019 at 22:12, JimE said:

Charles J Lewis

Medal Index card and rolls show

1/1 SW Bords T1238, SW Bords 200107, RE 574437 Cpl             (not found under 200907)

1914/15 star, BWM, Victory Medal

Disembarked 3-7-15 in theatre 5c (Aden) entry corrected from 29/10/14

Demobbed 3 June 1919

 

Brecknockshire Bn 1/1 S W Borderers went to India on 29/10/14 and remained there for the war, except leaving India on  3 December 1914 and arriving on 16 Dec in Aden, until August 1915 (Long Long Trail)

Presumably Lewis did not go with the main body to India but joined in Aden  in July 1915, where he qualified for the BWM and the 1914/1915 star

CHARLES JAMES LEWIS has his service record on ancestry,he appears to have volunteered 1st batt brenockshire battalion swb 1904,, territorial number T1238,went to training camps, volunteered to resign 19 March 1908.iI don't know when but he joined 1st Brecknocks SWB, reg number 200107.He later joined royal engineers 574437,again I don't know when.On his mic it says Brenocks bwm-vm,14/15 star RE?,if as in earlier posts  his entitlement for the star came from his batt being in Aden,how can I find out when he joined royal engineers ?

[Keith_history_buff]

All I can say is this: He has a 4 digit number in 1914/15 (nothing unusual there) and is in the South Wales Borderers. The fact that he has a South Wales Borderers TF six digit number tells me he was still in the regiment when the renumbering took place in 1917, so he appears to have transferred to the RE at some point from 1917 onwards.

If you really want to find a more precise date, you will need to do analyses on the RE numbers around 574437. For those RE men with surviving service records, you should be able to get a clearer idea.

This is assuming that his service record does not have a surviving Statement of Service.

Thanks
Keith

[JimE]

I think the Medal Index Card shows the 1914/15 star as a Private in the SWB (with a red symbol), but on a RE list.

His prewar service record (assuming this is the same man) shows service in 1st Volunteer Bn SWB from 17.12.02 to 1.1.07 no 4319 voluntarily resigned

Rejoined 17.3.08 to 31.3.08 and then reengaged (initially for one year) in Brecknockshire Bn Territorial Force (at the time it was reorganised) to 31.3.10 no 5220 Discharged on termination of engagement

Full time training 6.6.08 to 16.6.08 Brecon and 24.7.09 to 7.8.09 in Porthcawl

The record does not include later papers.

The number T1238 appears to have come from a later engagement

So he had 6 years Territorial and Volunteer service before the war to count towards the Territorial Force Efficiency medal plus his wartime service counting double to get the required 12 years

Jim

Edited 6 March , 2019 by JimE
Additional comment on TF medal

[Scalyback]

6 minutes ago, JimE said:

Full time training 6.6.08 to 16.6.08 Brecon and 24.7.09 to 7.8.09 in Porthcawl

 

When is mentions Brecon. Is that Watton, the Drill hall further up the road or training where the battle school is?

 

Edit just a general query. 

Edited 6 March , 2019 by Scalyback

[BIFFO]

Once again thank you chaps, I know Charles`s civy  details and most of his army details so on this man my research is complete 

 

[Scalyback]

3 minutes ago, BIFFO said:

Once again thank you chaps, I know Charles`s civy  details and most of his army details so on this man my research is complete 

 

 

Good your back on the mend. 

[BIFFO]

thank you for your kind interest, I have a further 3 sets of medals to research one for a Welsh man captured 1st Ypres sent back to Germany wounded where he died,one for a Welsh man wounded sent back to Wales where he died of wounds in his home ? and a red  cross nurse. My ancestry runs out at the end of the month I will not be renewing until I feel I'm up to it.But to be honest they will have to wait as I go for a test this afternoon,a test Thursday and see a consultant,then on the 12 go for a cat scan,  I am feeling much better

but not out of the woods yet.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, Scalyback said:

 

When is mentions Brecon. Is that Watton, the Drill hall further up the road or training where the battle school is?

 

Edit just a general query. 

I would imagine that the SWB depot at the Watton is referred to. I am unaware of the battle school having existed in its current guise back then. I would imagine the only other facilities in the area would be the various drill halls where the associated companies of the Brecknock Battalion Territorial Force would have drilled.

 

 

[Scalyback]

5 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I would imagine that the SWB depot at the Watton is referred to. I am unaware of the battle school having existed in its current guise back then. I would imagine the only other facilities in the area would be the various drill halls where the associated companies of the Brecknock Battalion Territorial Force would have drilled.

 

 

 

I'm not enthusiastic it is The Barracks. Watton and HQ Brecknockshire are two separate buildings. Regards "Battle school", that arrived in world war two. I'm after any use of land in Brecon(shire) that annual camp or other training may of been held at. If you look at an old OS map, where the now School of Infantry is placed, there was wide open fields. 

 

I know Watton very well my troop was the last unit to be based there.