relic pistols how tell diff tween luger ww1 and ww2

[arantxa]

is there a difference tween ww1 and ww2 luger and C96

[MikB]

Dunno. Design of the Luger's pretty constrained. If the markings are eaten up, I don't know how you'd tell a '41 Mauser from a '15 DWM. I don't think the longer-barrelled variants were made in WW2. Somebody might come along who knows better.

 

I think the 9mm variants of the broomhandle Mauser were more in evidence in WW2, because the ammunition was more readily available than 7,63 - though I believe captured Soviet Tokarev/PPSH ammunition would work. But with arms in the photgraphed condition, I don't know that you could readily identify the calibre.

Edited 25 January , 2019 by MikB

[James McNair]

No not really or certainly not that you'd notice from comparing just metal frames. Both Lugers and Broomhandles were on the way out in WW2 with introduction of the Walther P.38.

 

Regards

[MikB]

17 minutes ago, James McNair said:

No not really or certainly not that you'd notice from comparing just metal frames. Both Lugers and Broomhandles were on the way out in WW2 with introduction of the Walther P.38.

 

Regards

Still lots of Lugers in WW2 - P.38 output was always behind demand. Broomhandles much less prevalent, though still getting a writeup in Lt. Col. Barlow's WW2 Small Arms Manual distrbuted to British forces.

[Radlad]

Webley (looks to be a .455 MkVI  by looking at the size in comparison to the P08 and C96)

 

Continental made bulldog type revolver, cheap and nasty, not issue but possibly a private purchase back up. probably in one of the .32"/7.65mm calibres

 

French M1893 service revolver

 

Mauser C96 pistol. 10 round magazine, type 2 milling on the frame, apparently a 5-1/2" barrel , small ring hammer? that shows all the signs of being a WW1 German contract model. Only calibre would tell for certain.

post WW1, military and police models were restricted to 4" barrels. Civilian models with 5-1/2" were produced but they are easily identified by a step in the barrel diameter just in front of the chamber.

 

Are any of the relics loaded?

[MikB]

14 minutes ago, Radlad said:

...

Are any of the relics loaded?

 

Obviously the two revolvers with missing cylinders aren't, and the Luger's extractor isn't raised - even the rust would probably have left a little hump if it had been when dropped, and there're no obvious remains of a magazine in the butt. 

 

That leaves the Webley and the Mauser. Can't see how it's possible to tell on the Mauser, though bullets might be visible in the Webley from the front.

[Gernika]

2 hours ago, MikB said:

 

Obviously the two revolvers with missing cylinders aren't, and the Luger's extractor isn't raised - even the rust would probably have left a little hump if it had been when dropped, and there're no obvious remains of a magazine in the butt. 

 

That leaves the Webley and the Mauser. Can't see how it's possible to tell on the Mauser, though bullets might be visible in the Webley from the front.

 

 

A rod into the barrel until touch the breech or bolt face, mark it.

put the rod outside the barrel and you will see if there is a bullet into.

If not blocked.....

 

[MikB]

13 minutes ago, Gernika said:

 

 

A rod into the barrel until touch the breech or bolt face, mark it.

put the rod outside the barrel and you will see if there is a bullet into.

If not blocked.....

 

 

I imagine that might be the issue...

[Gernika]

43 minutes ago, MikB said:

 

I imagine that might be the issue...

A simply wire could do the job.

[MikB]

12 hours ago, Gernika said:

A simply wire could do the job.

Arantxa might put me right, but I'd expect the mixture of stone-hard mud and rust over a century or so would result in a complete blockage of the barrel for most or all of its remaining length, that you could only remove with operations that are either lengthy, or forceful, or both. Forceful work would probably come with difficult risks to assess, if there's prospect of enclosed live rounds.

[Radlad]

16 minutes ago, MikB said:

Arantxa might put me right, but I'd expect the mixture of stone-hard mud and rust over a century or so would result in a complete blockage of the barrel for most or all of its remaining length, that you could only remove with operations that are either lengthy, or forceful, or both. Forceful work would probably come with difficult risks to assess, if there's prospect of enclosed live rounds.

 

It looks like Arantxa may have abandoned this post so you may not get an answer Mik.

 

There are ways to clean and dismantle these relics, not always successful , but it can usually be done.,  An industrial quality ultrasonic tank, copious amounts of wristwatch cleaning/lubricating fluid , patience and a nylon faced hammer is the best way to approach the job.

 

I've been puzzling over the Luger. the magazines are only made of thin metal and judging by the rusted state of the piece could well have corroded away. Also, the 'found state' history is lacking, there may well have been rounds left in it , but only the finder would know. It certainly looks like a standard P08 from the WW1 period but I will reserve judgement on it's age until more information is known.

[MikB]

Yes, I'd thunk the thought of an ultrasonic tank with some suitable solvent, but didn't know of watch cleaning fluid - that's a lengthy process requiring some fairly serious resources.

 

The nylon-faced hammer - well, you don't wanna find yourself tapping a rod at an obstruction that might be a round in unknown condition, driving it back against a breech face in unknown conditon, where there might be the remains of a firing pin in unknown condition... >:-o

 

You could well be right about the Luger magazine casing, but I was thinking the finger-grip piece on the bottom end might well have survived and been found with the remains. A round up the spout in a Luger lifts the extractor at an angle to expose a little 'geladen' telltale. The extractor pivots on a crosspin through the breech block, and the small half-loop of forged steel that retains it would sometimes break in WW1 Lugers fired in modern times, with the surface of the break looking frosty as if the steel had gone crystalline. However, if a Luger was lost in trenchmud in WW1 with a loaded chamber, I doubt that would happen and I think there'd be remains of the raised extractor - and there's no visible trace in the photo.

[kmad]

The finger grip piece on the bottom of the magazine of the Luger is wooden or aluminium (which would be well lost at this stage)

so 

lack of this will not tell you if magazine was present or not when the gun was lost.

It  does look like something is pinched in against the back side of the magazine well where the front of the Luger grip was crushed

The spring in a Luger is generally a coil spring rather than the box shaped spring on "normal " magazines

so if the crushed piece is the remains of a coil spring there was a mag in it when it was lost 

regards

Ken 

Edited 29 January , 2019 by kmad

[arantxa]

Hello  sorry for delay..these all came via a museum that was closing down along with a lot of other stuff and that tags on most stuff say it came from Boezinge excavations however there was other stuff apart from bayonets etc etc that I think is ww2 and a piece of Horsa glider under carriage that says  found by a dutch lady near Arnhem but ive yet to  id it..so the reason im not sure if its all ww1 or ww2...the barrels are all solid..i will put up the other items and most of the stuff was in bags with the mud still in it

The webley with the damage on it I wondered if it had been hit by something I will take some better pictures as that was just on my mobile on my office floor

[Radlad]

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 16:56, arantxa said:

Hello  sorry for delay..these all came via a museum that was closing down along with a lot of other stuff and that tags on most stuff say it came from Boezinge excavations however there was other stuff apart from bayonets etc etc that I think is ww2 and a piece of Horsa glider under carriage that says  found by a dutch lady near Arnhem but ive yet to  id it..so the reason im not sure if its all ww1 or ww2...the barrels are all solid..i will put up the other items and most of the stuff was in bags with the mud still in it

The webley with the damage on it I wondered if it had been hit by something I will take some better pictures as that was just on my mobile on my office floor

 

These don't look like archaeological finds to me, I would expect the missing revolver cylinders to be present, evidently the cylinder pins have rusted away but the cylinder would have remained with the pistols. I lean more to plough or farmers finds. Unloaded battlefield weapons are a rarity as they were usually ready for immediate use, damage could be from the battlefield ( HE can make a mess of items as well as people) or could be from agricultural operations such as ploughing or drainage channel digging. Farm machinery can be pretty unforgiving when it hits something.

I THINK all the items are actually from WW1 but that's the best I can do, maybe someone else can chip in as I find topics on any handguns very interesting 

[kmad]

2 points on the mauser 98

the safety is off

the hammer is the earlier type with a small hole on the hammer

[trajan]

5 hours ago, kmad said:

2 points on the mauser 98

the safety is off

the hammer is the earlier type with a small hole on the hammer

 

Unless still clogged by mud! But of course, wrong overall size... 

Edited 31 January , 2019 by trajan

[arantxa]

you can see these haven't been found by a plough  plus there is lots of other stuff tins etc that would not be im such ggod condition that's fascinating about the c96 hole size thanks I expext maybe the museum took out the mags who knows when I get a chance will photograph other stuff like the flare pistols etc

[kmad]

Nice interesting lot of items thanks for extra pictures.

 

The Webleys were brittle enough when extreme force used and they shattered rather than bent (a bit like cast Iron shatters). I have one with a blown up cylinder and it looks to have a lot of inclusions in the steel..

 

All I can further tell you is the Luger has the remnants of a magazine in it.  The metal is v thin on the magazines and it has just rotted away, no way to tell if it is cocked or not though as it has no external indicators.  They changed the safety catch  to go in either direction so no way to be certain if the safety catch is on or not  but for 90% of Lugers the safety is in the off position on your gun.

 

Feel where i have indicated and if there is a bump here this indicates the extractor is holding on to the back of a round and the gun is loaded, if it has no raised up bit it probably is not loaded but i still would treat it as it is loaded.

 

For the mauser the WWI ones did not have a magazine, but rather a fixed mag like the SMLE  they were filled from the top via a stripper clip

The base of the magazine looks to have fallen/rotten away.  Some, but not all, of the WWII did have a removable magazine as they could be full auto, yours is not a full auto version though as the selector switch is not present.

 

I still don't know if WWI or II but if i was to put a bet on the outcome i would go WWI  and be fairly confident.

 

The Webbley,and the 2 German automatics would turn up pretty good if cleaned up but in the present condition they look smashing as well  and i would probably leave as is.

 

regards

Ken 

ps looking at pictures again the safety is definitely off on the Luger

 

Edited 31 January , 2019 by kmad

[arantxa]

Thank you for all your informative your very knowledgeable on the subject I’m just going to leave them as they are

thsnks again I’ve learnt a lot 

[MikB]

I think the Luger safety is off - not that the mech is in any state to operate anyway - because swinging it back would push the flat paralellogram slide at its foot upward and forward and cause the top end to block the outward movement of the rear arm of the sear.

[Radlad]

Thanks for the further pictures. I was not to sure whether the Mauser had a small ring hammer when I posted post 5. now I am certain. (there were 3 different hammers fitted to the variations of these  pistols,. large ring, small ring and cone. The small ring and cone look similar in profile. The Milling on the side is clearer now and I can confirm it as type 2 (the same as was used on the german contract models. The vast majority of these were in 9mm calibre and were marked with a big number 9 on the grips. Very few were marked inside the grip.

So, post 1908 model , definitely WW1 era. Calibre uncertain. If it gets wet, please don't put it in the oven to dry it. 

 

I Agree with most things posted by kmad apart from the comment about Webleys being brittle. All revolver cylinders are 'tough' due to the heat treatment used and they tend to shatter like cast iron when overpressures. The rest of the gun frame is of different steel and heat treated to a lesser extent. Only the springs and working action parts are harder (more 'brittle') than the cylinders. I have seen literally dozens of Webley MkIV and S&W Victory models in a blown up state due to using 9mmP in them. the chamber side shatters but the Victory top straps simply bent up. One of the Webleys was revived by fitting a new cylinder, the rest of the gun was ok

 

Thank you for posting , this is the first post in a long time that I have enjoyed contributing to.

Edited 1 February , 2019 by Radlad
Edited for spelling- a Mauser is not a Mouser

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Radlad said:

...

I have seen literally dozens of Webley MkIV and S&W Victory models in a blown up state due to using 9mmP in them. the chamber side shatters but the Victory top straps simply bent up. One of the Webleys was revived by fitting a new cylinder, the rest of the gun was ok

 

Thank you for posting , this is the first post in a long time that I have enjoyed contributing to.

2z SMG ammunition presumably? I've heard stories about 9x19 being fired in 38-200/38 S&W chambers, but often the case headspaces so far in that the pin won't reach the cap. In many loading manuals, the very top end of 38 S&W overlaps the very bottom end of 9x19, and Webleys and Enfield No.2s have a reputation for being strongly made, so I can only think that very hot loads of 9x19 must have been involved. Still, I guess it would be drifting too far off-topic to explore that much further.

[kmad]

HI Radlad

interesting comments on the Mauser thanks for education 

 

I had  a Webley with a top strap blown off  and the frame cracked from an excessive hot reload (Irish IRA from the 1920's) 

3 chambers blown out as well, it looked like cast iron where the parts had blown apart

I do not have the gun anymore but here is an image i do have 

you cant see the porous look where the back strap was but it definitely did look like cast iron 

Regards

Ken  

[Radlad]

Quote

 

Thanks for that photo kmad. I don't think I would have liked to be standing beside the shooter when that thing went off. You have certainly proved a point with that pistol. Strangely enough, most damage like that occurs with underloading the cartridge or using too fast a burning powder for the cartridge volume. If the correct powder is used, it is rare that enough can be packed in to cause serious over pressure problems.

Can I ask please, was the cylinder hand present in that pistol. If you say yes and want to know my reasons for asking, I would prefer to answer in a private message as I feel it would be out of scope of this forum

Must rush... Hospital appt. Back later