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Further information on photos - RFA


All Together Now

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I would appreciate any information or knowledge anyone might be able to share on a few of photos I have of my great grandfather, as well as a document relating to his service post war.

 

Some bg info on him (note: I think I have everything I can find on him in terms of docs from 1912-1918 - DCM citations, attestation papers etc). His name was John Henry Royden and he was a Sergeant in 277th Brigade, RFA. On his DCM 1918 it says he was part of C/277. On this photo, it says 354th Battery, which I believe relates to 13th Battery of the 1/3 West Lancs Brigade which became 277th Brigade after a name change in May 1916.

 

1276273946_JohnRoydenRFA2.jpg.f40afd4c5243bf012bcf5991443c6fc8.jpg

 

I also have this picture which given the trees in the background I assume was the same day (he is in the middle sat down):

 

1397929521_JohnRoydenRFA.jpg.74ca726cf365022368da349a789a280d.jpg

 

Finally, I also have this picture and have no idea whether it was during or after the War as he joined back up in 1920.

 

1708305739_SgtJohnRoyden.JPG.9f73eaab02a774d11ba36bd4a63c26ae.JPG

 

I believe he became a Regimental Sergeant Major and this is referenced in this doc:

 

33382831_JohnRoydenreenlisted1920anddischarged1923.jpg.d8072288e2b7db9c7070735e1e313c97.jpg

 

It would be great if anyone could spot any clues as to what year these may have been or comment on anything about the uniform etc that may provide more info. 

 

Thanks

Edited by All Together Now
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A very fine set of pics.

All photos look to be after 1920, going by style of uniform, lanyards on right shoulder, etc.

In the portrait shot your ancestor is in WO1 style of service dress with Sam Browne belt and tunic with closed collar.  In the group he is a sergeant, in charge of the gun detachment (number 1).

The unit was probably using ground off Aigburth Road, behind what is now the Brigadier Toosey barracks.

I’ll have a look later at the unit’s war diary but would be interested to hear any more of your g/g/father’s story.  I have found much about this Brigade but do not have much detail for the between-War years.

Daggers

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It looks as if he is wearing his trio plus the DCM medal ribbons which would suggest post August 1919.  In the bottom picture he is wearing a Sam Browne belt which is a mark of a Warrant Officer Class 1 (Regimental Sergeant Major).  This would appear to be in his post war years of service.  Agree with Daggers entirely

 

I think you have your brigades and batteries mixed up?  The battery he was serving in when he was awarded his DCM was indeed C/277 (C Battery of 277 Brigade).  That was previously 14 Battery of 1/3 West Lancs Bde RFA and appears to have been the only battery that remained with its identity throughout.(source LLT). 

 

I don't find an immediate connection between that battery or brigade and 354 Battery, indeed I can't find a brigade to which  354 Battery belonged?  Daggers seems to have the answer.

 

Max

Edited by MaxD
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Thanks for the replies and info.

 

@daggersI only found one reference to him in the War Diary, and that was for his MSM on 17th June 1918. He did win a DCM in September 1918, but that's not specifically mentioned in the diary. The only information I have of him is what I have found from docs on Ancestry etc, so nothing after WW1 unfortunately other than that I knew he became a RSM. I did find out that he joined up originally in 1912 as part of the 6th Bn Kings Liverpool Regiment, before moving to the Dragoon Guards and getting himself in to a bit of trouble where he got discharged from the Army. Great to find out how he turned it around though and rose through the ranks.

 

@MaxD I have been doing a write up but now I am confused as to what Battery he would have joined originally in 1914 when the War started. I had assumed it would have been 12th Battery based at Admiral Street as he lived in Mill Street in Dingle about half a mile away. But then I was trying to find out what 354th Battery was on that picture.

 

The only reference I could find of 354th Battery (that is where I saw 13th Battery mentioned) was on this link but I had missed where it said 1937-38 so it's probably irrelevant to John when he originally joined in 1914.

 

https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/12/55-Division-1937-38.pdf

 

Wikipedia suggests that in 1917 when 277th became an Army Field Brigade that C Battery was formed from the 2 below:

 

B Bty (6 x 18-pounders) – originally 13th Lancashire Bty + half 12th Lancashire Bty
C Bty (6 x 18-pounders) – originally 14th Lancashire Bty + half 12th Lancashire Bty

 

It does sound possible that those first 2 pictures were after he rejoined in 1920 when he was a Sergeant before becoming a RSM. He lived in Dingle and Toxteth until the 1930's before moving to Aigburth.

 

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Hi All Together Now,

 

Whilst the citation was published in the London Gazette in September 1918, his DCM action date appears to be 21st March 1918.

 

image.png.dd29605b636ad3c91c487a676c0f2d9e.png

Image source: The National Archives - file WO 391/6/2

 

Under his post war number, the MoD appear to have what's left of his service file.

image.png.8caf56f2663a23f50420d395cb35ca16.png

 

If you'd like to take a £30 gamble on what WW1/post war records it might contain, you should be able to get a copy - see here. Contrary to the general advice given, I understand that as he was born over 110 years ago, there would be no need to supply a copy death certificate with any application. There is a helpdesk phone number here.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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277 Brigade went through more transformations than a season of pantomime, after WW1, with a variety of battery numbers, which I will try to summarise later, or more likely tomorrow.

As ATM has the war diary I shall not look there.

D

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You are looking at post war batteries - 354 Battery was a battery in 89th Brigade RFA,, 55th West Lancashire Divisional Artillery, from September 1, 1920.

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Thought that might be the case given the reversion to battery numbers.

 

15 hours ago, All Together Now said:

Wikipedia suggests that in 1917 when 277th became an Army Field Brigade that C Battery was formed from the 2 below:

 

B Bty (6 x 18-pounders) – originally 13th Lancashire Bty + half 12th Lancashire Bty
C Bty (6 x 18-pounders) – originally 14th Lancashire Bty + half 12th Lancashire Bty

 

I believe this is referring to a later reorganisation.  The 55 Div CRA diary is clear that the 6 May 1916 order for the reorg of the RFA brigades had 12,13 and 14 Btys turned into A, B and C 277 respectively.  I don't think that sheds any light on which battery he actually went to war with though.

 

Whatever, a fine Gunner record all in all.

 

Max

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From my notes on 3rd West Lancs Brigade:

1914: 13th Lancashire Battery was based at Earp Street, Garston. Brigade HQ and other batteries at Admiral Treet, Toxteth.

1916: Battery designations changed to A, B, C., 1/3rd West Lancs Bde renamed 277th Brigade, later Army Brigade.

1919: 277th Bde in supended animation

1920: TA formed to replace TF.  277 revived as 89th (3rd West Lancs) Brigade TF, at Admiral Street.

1924: 'Field' added to designation.

1932: Batteries were 353/4/6, based at Tramway Road.

1937: Role and title changed to 70th (3rd West Lancs) AA Bde, still at Tramway Road.

 

Added:  Gnr J. Royden disembarked in France as 1333, which woud have been his original regimental number.  This renumbering in 1917 shows a similar number as 1322 becoming 685455. 

The date of his arrival, shown on the V & BWM medal roll, was 1/10/15 which matches the Brigade's arrival.

The current sole Reserve unit of Artillery in the North West has a Battery in Liverpool which connects directly with 3rd West Lancs.

D

Edited by daggers
extras
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original post deleted, battery re-numbering post war covered by David in post #8.  

 

Max

Edited by MaxD
Overlooked earlier post!
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Thanks to all those who have replied, it will help me finish off the write up I have been doing for some family members.

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