Was this 1/4th Duke of Wellington's man Missing or KIA?

[Aurel Sercu]

I am doing some research on 3 men Dukes of Wellington's Regiment who died in the phosgene gas attack of 19 Dec. 1915 in my village Boezinge (near Ypres). One of them is Pte Willie SMITH, 2638, 1/4th Bn. His name is on the Menin Gate Memorial in Ypres, but I think there is a (small) chance he is in Talana Farm Cem. in Boezinge, as an 'Unknown'. (Actually there is another 'candidate' too for this grave.) In order to obtain more certainty I wish something puzzling in his Army Records became clearer to me.

 

What am I to think of this extract from the Casualty Report (Form B.103) ? It mentions both "Missing" and "Killed in Action" on the same date of 19 December.

 

My specific questions:

 

1. Does it mean that first he went missing and that after a while, on the same day, he was declared "Killed in Action" ?

 

2. Was this "correction" because his body was found ? (There had been heavy shelling after the gas attack and in the afternoon.)

 

3. Is this an absolute proof that his body was found indeed ? Or was it assumed he was KIA because there were many who were KIA, because comrades had seen he was KIA ? (Indeed it appears that he was "killed instantly by a bullet as he was leaving the trenches".)

 

4. Or do you think that, if his body was not found, then it would have been "Presumed dead" ?

 

5. It appears that this information "Missing" and "Killed in Action" is  based on Army Forms B.213 and A.36. These forms are not in Willie Smith's Army Records. What are they ?

 

I can  add that in his records there is no list of personal possessions. (I think that if there had been a list, then this would have been proof that indeed his body was found and identified.)

 

Aurel

Edited 18 January , 2019 by Aurel Sercu
typo

[Marilyne]

Hi Aurel, 

 

very interesting question... 

can I counter with a question: what's the first date column?? the date on which it was written in the report?? 

If that's the case why wait over a month for the second line if you assume the guy dead after a day of action? 

 

It's not usual to declare somebody dead after having gone missing "only" a month... some soldiers were still "missing" years after the war. So to me the fact that "KIA" was finally reported after a month means there must have been some evidence stating that the guy was in fact dead. Could have been they found a body, could have been eye witnesses. But I think we can dismiss point 3 & 4... I don't have the impression someone was ever declared KIA with reasonable doubt still existing as to his wereabouts. 

 

Looking forward to the whole story! 

 

M.

 

[ss002d6252]

The first column will be when the report was received - what is likely is that either his body was recovered or that they were otherwise satisfied he had been killed and that he had not made it off the battlefield.It took the month to establish this (it often took far longer, as pointed out).

I would agree that the situation suggests that something was likely recovered which indicated his death - a body or some sort of remains. It would be quick for a report just on the basis that someone was seen to have fallen, although you cannot rule it out.

The effects records will usually say 'Death Presumed' rather than 'In Action' (as it does say) if the man was missing and only presumed dead.

 

5) The records have been weeded over the years as well as having been through the Arnside fire.

 

Craig

[Aurel Sercu]

Maryline,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

What I think I see is that the O.C. made a report on 21 Dec. 1915 that the man (Willie Smith) was Missing on 19 Dec., and then on 27 Jan 1916 that he was KIA on 19 Dec. 1916. I did wonder indeed about that more than one month. And ... I do not know whether that is relevant or not. (And if it is, what the conclusion can be ...   :-(  )

 

Just to be sure I understand correctly :  You think his KIA is a proof that is body was found, or do you think it is not ? (Sorry, the way I worded my question #3 is confusing, I know.)

 

The whole story ... Well, so far it is many many pages. (And ... many many weeks ...) But in a nutshell ... There is a row in Talana Farm Cemetery of 9 graves. All 1/4 Bn Dukes, 19 Dec. 1915. Except that one 'Unknown'. (There are very few Unknowns in the cemetery.)  I am 99 % sure that this Unknown man too is 1/4 Bn Dukes, 19 Dec. (There are other elements too I took into consideration ...(The context ... the War Diaries ... the other Dukes battalions etc.)

 

To my surprise I found one name on the Menin Gate Memorial in Ypres of 1/4 Bn Dukes 19 Dec. 1915 : Frank Chappell, 1208. But then I 'unfortunately' found a second one, whom I first had overlooked : Willie Smith, 2638.

 

I have reasons to assume that Frank Chappell was buried at the time in Talana Farm Cemetery (a newspaper article). As to Willy Smith ... no information. Except that he was ... Missing and ... KIA.

 

You will understand that somehow I "hope" that Willie Smith went missing, and remained missing. And that his body / death was seen by comrades, but that he was not taken to Talana Farm Cemetery. For ... that would mean that the Unknown headstone is Frank Chappell's grave.

 

I really wish the 1/4th Bn WD were as detailed as the 1/6th Bn's WD. The latter are so complete, give so many names, of killed ORs and also wounded, even the nature of their (sometimes) slight wounds ...

 

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Craig,

 

I was writing my reply to Maryline when you posted your reply.

 

Thanks. It sure gives me more reasons to think even hard(er). I am beginning to believe more than before that Willie Smith was not taken to Talana Farm Cemetery. But if someone thinks the opposite, I am anxious to learn.

 

And indeed, the Army Records may be incomplete. And what is missing maybe would have answered my questions ... Maybe there was a form with his possessions ?... (But even that would not mean that he was taken to Talana Fm Cem. and buried there, would it ...)

 

I love a mystery, but some can be very tiring ... I'm afraid even that Frank Chappell and Willie Smith will 'spoil' my TV night...   :-)

 

Aurel

[Bordercollie]

The OC would not want to report a man KIA who might possibly be still alive as such a report would trigger notification of the death to the man's next of kin. As mentioned by others some evidence must have come to light around 27th January that Willie Smith had been killed during the action on 19th December.

 

AF B.213 was a unit weekly strength return (see below). I doubt that a copy would have ended up on the soldier's file. The AF A.36 was a nominal roll of hospital admissions and discharges. I doubt that would be relevant in this case. 

[ss002d6252]

Quote

I have reasons to assume that Frank Chappell was buried at the time in Talana Farm Cemetery (a newspaper article). As to Willy Smith ... no information. Except that he was ... Missing and ... KIA.

Are you able to provide more on the newspaper article ?

Craig

[Guest]

Mate,

 

We did it this way which I surpose was how the British did it.

 

After the action a number would be marked "missing" when no one could confirm there death?

 

And reported as such. later sometimes days, months or years after the action, the unit would hold an inquiry into the missing men, they would try to find what happen to them from the soldiers who survived.

 

In most part they can't find what happened to them because there were no wittness left?

 

The unit would then report them killed in action

 

That's why there is often so many dates in there records and the date of possible death is often incorrect.

 

These inquiries are often left for some time after the action, as bodies maybe recovered or some other details found, so when held (the inquirys) they have all the available info to hand?

 

Its not uncommon for more then one inquiry to be held as new details come to hand.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 19 January , 2019 by stevebecker

[Aurel Sercu]

Border Collie, Craig and S.B.,

 

Thank you so much for your replies. And things have become much clearer now to me. And that that month between his death on 19 Dec. 1915 and the entry "KIA" a month later indeed is relevant.

 

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Craig,

 

You asked : " Are you able to provide more on the newspaper article ? "

 

There was an article regarding the death of Sergeant Frank Chappell in The Halifax Courier, 15 Jan. 1916. A letter is being quoted by Sec. Lieut. W.S. Booth to Mrs. Chappell : "(...) He has been buried by the chaplain in one of our ever-growing burial places, where severeal of his comrades lie by his side."

 

The three things I underlined can only refer to Talana Farm Cemetery. And I am absolutely sure that in the area there were no other large (ever-growing) cemeteries that were later, after the war, removed to concentration cemeteries.

 

 I am getting more and more convinced that the 'Unknown' grave very probably is Frank Chappell. Why an 'Unknown' now ? I have no idea. He must have been identified at the time of his burial, but for some reason the cross was lost or damaged by shelling ? And this is a question I have already asked before elsewhere in the Forum : Even if crosses and graves were most or damaged later by shelling, were there no lists to make sure where who was buried where ? The answer given to my question at the time was :" Yes, chaplains may have made lists for themselves ... Was such a list made for Talana Farm Cemetery ? And if so, where is it now ...."   :-(

 

(I can add that indeed there are 16 Special Memorials now for men who were Known, or Believed to be buried there, or identified as a group (Plot 1, Row E). No Frank Chappell ...)

 

Aurel

[Marilyne]

On 18/01/2019 at 20:22, Aurel Sercu said:

 

Just to be sure I understand correctly :  You think his KIA is a proof that is body was found, or do you think it is not ?

 

Even if other answers have been given - I'm a bit late with catching up, been busy house hunting on the internet - : yes, that's what I mean. 

 

if labelled KIA there had to be absolute proof that he was killed... that's the only way to exclude reasonable doubt. 

As Craig said:"otherwise satisfied he had been killed" could mean other things, but I stand my ground: there must have been irrefutable proof of his demise... finding a body (or a piece of it) is the most likely. 

 

Greetz from sunny Spain!!! 

 

M.

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Marilyne.

And do you think that, if a body (or piece of it) was not found, but that there were reliable witness accounts (saying that they saw him being killed or dead, e.g. in an enquiry in the later weeks), that this would be considered irrefutable proof ?

 

And I should have mentioned this too ... A while after his deathWillie Smith's body cannot possibly have been found by men of his 1/4th Bn Dukes. For the night 19/20 December (i.e. the night after the gas attack and the death of Willie Smith), the battalion left Boezinge, proceeded to Elverdinge, then to near Poperinge, to Poperinge,to  Sint-Jan-ter-Biezen (31 Dec. 1915), and then crossed the French border. (So did the 49th Div., never to return to Boezinge.)

 

Aurel

By the way, "from sunny Spain"... You think I envy you ? Today was a 100% sunny day in Boezinge too. Just a small difference : 1-2°C, and right now (8 p.m.) : 0°C. Conclusion ? Yes, I ... envy you.  :-)

 

[DaveC]

HI Aurel Sercu

 Pte W. Smith No. 2638 Gassed 19/12/1915 'C' Company,    Buried by 5th Bn KSLI 24/01/1915 Between F.32 & S.32 , perhaps a forum member may have the 5th Bn KSLI War Diary for that date.   Kindest Regards DaveC

Edited 21 January , 2019 by DaveC

[DaveC]

2/Lt Leonard Pratt 'C' Company

Edited 21 January , 2019 by DaveC

[DaveC]

Sgt Frank Chappell

 

ELLAND SOLDIER KILLED

 

   Another Elland soldier has paid the supreme sacrifice for yesterday afternoon official information was received by Mr. and Mrs. John Chappel, of Briggate, Elland, that their son, Sergeant Frank Chappel, of the 1/4^th Battalion, Duke of Wellington’s Regiment had been killed in action on December 19^th last.   When several of the local soldiers were home on furlough about Christmas, the intelligence was noised abroad that he was among the missing, after the Germans had poured poisonous gas into the British trenches, but it was not until yesterday that direct evidence was to hand.   This came in the form of a letter from Second Lieutenant W. S. Booth, and was couched in the following terms: -

 

   “I am very grieved to have to write that it has now been verified, that your son was killed during the gas attack on December 19^th.   The bombardment was a very heavy one and it was some time before his body was discovered and identified.   He has since been buried by the chaplain in one of the ever-growing burial places where several of his comrades lie by his side.   Your son was a very willing worker and possessed a great quality of cheerfulness under the most trying circumstances.   He is greatly missed by men with whom he was so popular and they all wish to join with myself and the Officers of D Company by expressing our deepest sympathy with you in your great loss.”

 

   Sergeant Chappel was in camp with the Elland Territorials at the outbreak of the war, having been a member of that company  for about four years.   A stoker at the Century dyeworks, Elland, he wasc well known in the town.   His age was 20.   Mr. and Mrs. Chappel have 2 other sons out with the colours.   The eldest, Private Herbert Chappel is at present in hospital, suffering from gunshot wounds in the head, this being the third occasion that he has been wounded.   The other, Driver George Chappel, is with the R. F. A.

(Huddersfield Examiner Friday 14/01/1916)

 

2/.Lt W S Booth

 

 

[DaveC]

Sgt Frank Chappell

 

 

[DaveC]

casualty list entry for Pte Willie Smith,

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Dave,

You made my day ! This is so useful ! And I regret so much that I did not go to see my Topic on the Forum yesterday (and was not notified of a new posting).

 

The Chappell information (articles) I had already, but your photo is much better than what I had.

 

But then .... Willie Smith. Photo and ... the information proving (in)directly that he was not buried in Talana Farm Cem., but right behind the front lines on the battlefield. Even a location that I know very well, having spent "years" there in the soil... (Where we found remains of so many dozens of soldiers. Who knows ...)

 

So important in my research because this is an indirect proof that the man in the Unknown Grave in Talana Farm Cemetery "must" be Frank Chappell.

 

Just one more question : Can you let me know the name and date of the paper (weekly) the clippings are from in your postings #13 and #14 ? EDITED : I have just found the answer.   :-)

 

Thanks again.

 

Aurel

Edited 22 January , 2019 by Aurel Sercu
added "Edited"

[Oggy2378]

Aurel,

A couple more files relating to Frank Chappell you may not already have. Great detective work on your part and everyone else on the post. The jigsaw is coming together!!

Cheers

Wayne

[Aurel Sercu]

Hi Oggy / Wayne from Mytholmroyd, (How could I ever forget this almost 'mythical" name !  :-) )

 

Thanks, but I had that. And I will let you know where I got it from, months ago ...   :-)

 

Quite a coincidence. For while you were posting this I was having a look at the names of the other men mentioned in the article (where they were buried ... I see : 4 in Lijssenthoek Cem. (near Poperinge), 2 in Talana Farm Cem. (Boezinge), and 1 in Bard  Cottage Cem. (between Boezinge and Ypres).)

 

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Wayne, or any other GWF member,

 

Just a detail (?) ...

See your posting #19 , the typewritten extract - do you know what the abbreviations in

BEcho  SD38  WMBE  stand for ?

 

Aurel

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, Aurel Sercu said:

Wayne, or any other GWF member,

 

Just a detail (?) ...

See your posting #19 , the typewritten extract - do you know what the abbreviations in

BEcho  SD38  WMBE  stand for ? 

 

Aurel

I suspect it's a reference to the local newspaper the report was in - a local newspaper to the area is the Brighouse Echo.
 

Craig

[Oggy2378]

Aurel,

My apologies. This should explain. I think I may have emailed you with this before but the full document can be downloaded here with all abreviations used along with the Halifax Courier newspaper war years https://www.calderdale.gov.uk/wtw/sources/themes/world-war-one.html

 

Wayne

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Wayne and Craig,

 

This helps ! Not that thise things are very relevant, but I just cannot stand ... not understanding something.  :-)

 

Aurel

Edited 24 January , 2019 by Aurel Sercu
Word forgotten

[Aurel Sercu]

I only want to come back to something written in posting #6 (Bordercollie).

 

"The OC would not want to report a man KIA who might possibly be still alive as such a report would trigger notification of the death to the man's next of kin."

 

I supported that, and still do. Indeed it would be very embarrassing and painful if later ... He also added that some evidence must have come to light later etc. Again I agree. In the case of my man, Pte Willie Smith ... He went missing on 19 Dec. 1915. There soon must have been witnesses (one or more) who were reliable enough to assume he had died. (I assume they saw the body.) As far as I know (and found) there was no material evidence though (a body found, or material items ...). Not until 5 weeks after his death (24 Jan. 1916, by relieving KSLI troops, when the Dukes had already left Boezinge and the Ypres Salient).

 

So I was surprised to find that already less than 2 weeks after Willy Smith's death, his widow must have been notified that he had died. (I assume she was notified on 30 or 31 Dec. 1915 ? - Halifax Courier 1 Jan. 1916.) So that certainly was more than 3 weeks before Willie Smith's body was found. All I want to say is that when a body was not found, or no material evidence, it appears that reliable witnesses could be considered enough evidence to declare a man's death, that he could not possibly be still alive. That it was sufficient to notify his widow. (Two weeks after Willie Smith's body was found, his death was reported again in a Halifax paper.)

 

Aurel