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mindful45

Harry Thompson KRRC

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mindful45

So, following up, if you are patient you may be in luck, as  I have requested the family images mentioned earlier in this thread, and I have been informed that they will be coming my way. You know Mark I wouldn't have mixed up those numbers intentionally, it was simply a mistake or a typo, but I am sorry that this caused you inconvenience, as I wouldn't have wanted that.

 

Best wishes

 

Mel

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Liz in Eastbourne

Mel

'If you are patient you may be in luck' is an extraordinarily irritating thing to say.  All this - two pages? - has been for your benefit, and has added almost nothing to our knowledge of the Yeoman Rifles or indeed Harry Thompson beyond what was already known from Tommo's input years ago, despite knowledgeable members spending a lot of time and using up a good deal of patience.  I say 'almost' because Craig added the evidence of the war gratuity records to all the existing evidence that Harry Thompson did not see any service overseas with another  unit, not because you added anything.

 

The reasonable course of action would have been to obtain your additional family photos first and then post here, if you could  add anything to the question of whether the man in the photo Tommo posted was really him, or as we thought, his brother or some other relative and not relevant to this thread.  Even then he is just one of the thousand-plus original Yeoman Rifles, of no particular note that we have discovered, and does not justify taking up a sixth of the entire thread.  So you are the one who is lucky to have had help here, and received 'Christmas gifts' (as you merrily described your posts).

 

Liz

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mindful45

Hi all,

 

Sorry for the delay - here are the family photos as promised - they have just arrived in my inbox today, as due to Christmas and my uncle being under the weather they were a little delayed. Anyway see attached - and he is in the correct uniform yeaaaaaah! I hope this clears this up. Now it is up to you to decide whether this looks like the photo that Tommo posted. There is uncertainty about this, both on this forum and in our family - however, as Tommo had the same remembrance ribbon with this initial photo that our line of the family has, I would suggest that these three images are likely to be the same chap. Apparently on the back of one of the photos attached is a message from Harry saying "From your loving Brother Harry"....so we can say for sure that below is C/12149 KRRC Rifleman Harry Thompson, my Great Uncle and also Tommo's. Shame he is not online to read this. Maybe one day he will. Now you have a name and a face to put to your research, one more member of the Yeoman Rifles identified.

 

Now, finally, I never expected anyone to put themselves out or work over Christmas, I was simply responding to replies at times, and trying to answer some of the queries there. I am sorry though if at times this attempt caused more confusion. That was never my aim.

See attached. 

 

Over and out.

 

 

Harry 1 (3).jpg

Harry 2 (3).jpg

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MBrockway

Finally something tangible to get our teeth into!

 

Definitely a KRRC OR.  Rifle buttons, KRRC Maltese Cross cap badge with *probably* red felt backing..

 

852217917_THOMPSONRfnHarryC-1214921-KRRC-01b.jpg.43cc725f3a629fabcb969032076f0626.jpg36879684_THOMPSONRfnHarryC-1214921-KRRC-02b.jpg.64004657938491bba92f6939f77ff4c4.jpg772379972_UnknownWYORKS-01b.jpg.c4cc698f18e3e7617e7fc6c597f4ee9b.jpg

 

The chap with the (W or E) YORKS shoulder titles (RH of the three above) is, for me anyway, clearly a different man.  Ear lobes clearly different and the chin/jaw is more pointed.

 

My advice to you is ...

  1. change the photo mounted with Harry's memorial silk for one of the two that is definitely KRRC
  2. do some family research to identify a male relation (brother, uncle, cousin, etc.) on both paternal and maternal sides of your family who served in the West Yorkshire Regiment
  3. if 2 draws a blank, then research sweethearts and fiances of the female members of your family who may have had a W Yorks Regt/Leeds Rifles connection
  4. do not attempt to run #2 and #3 as a continuation of this Yeoman Rifles topic, but start a completely new topic from scratch in the Soldiers sub-forum.

Good luck with that.

 

Neither the West Yorkshire Regiment, nor the East Yorkshire Regiment, nor the Leeds Rifles have any connection whatsoever with 21/KRRC, the Yeoman Rifles.

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

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mindful45

Thanks Mark. So you too think these are different men? Interesting. The plot thickens with respect to this photo doesn't it? Apparently his sister thought this was definitely Harry (but she was very old in 2000 when Tommo indicated this was sent to his Dad Harry, so maybe memory and time or even eyesight clouded judgement). Whilst there are no other members of the family who have ever been mentioned in respect to the Great War, and it was only Harry that was ever spoken of or mentioned as having died then, this is certainly a mystery - but he did have other brothers, so this could be one, or even an old sweetheart of Lena - possibly). If it isn't Harry then who it is remains uncertain. I will do as you suggest however. If I ever get an answer I will post it back here in case anyone is ever interested in what this may have been.

 

At least Tommo, and anyone else interested in the Yeoman Rifles have a face here, which may be helpful when it comes to old regimental or battalion photos, you now know this is NOT the H Thompson in the Countess photo for a start. 

 

And yes I know that the E Yorks, W Yorks and Leeds Rifles were distinct from the KRRC - I did just wonder like a few others did if it were possible that Harry had transferred out to the KRRC from one of these possibilities. 

 

Thank you again for your hard work, and I am terribly sorry that I mixed up the archive number. I do empathise on that one. All the best. I wish everyone luck with finding more Yeoman Rifles out there.....all deserve putting a face to a name and remembering.

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mindful45

Ps...re: Tommo's photo - it turns out this man was not in either the East or West Yorkshire Regiment as speculated - he was in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. The shoulder title if you look is curved and is definitive of this regiment, and you were all right about 'ORK' as it says 'YORKSHIRE'. We resolved this one just this week, as I posted another photo on line ( a third) of a soldier that features his cap and badge - thus there are now two photos of Tommo's soldier on this forum. I figured I would post this here, to help solve this earlier mystery. If Tommo ever sees this it may be of use.

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MBrockway
3 hours ago, mindful45 said:

Ps...re: Tommo's photo - it turns out this man was not in either the East or West Yorkshire Regiment as speculated - he was in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. The shoulder title if you look is curved and is definitive of this regiment, and you were all right about 'ORK' as it says 'YORKSHIRE'. We resolved this one just this week, as I posted another photo on line ( a third) of a soldier that features his cap and badge - thus there are now two photos of Tommo's soldier on this forum. I figured I would post this here, to help solve this earlier mystery. If Tommo ever sees this it may be of use.

 

Mel,

You have misinterpreted Frogsmile's guidance I'm afraid and the man in Tommo's photo cannot be KOYLI - see my explanation in your other topic here:

 

The man in Tommo's photo is either West Yorkshire Regt or East Yorkshire Regt.  The new photo you've posted in your new topic is indeed KOYLI, but is a new, different, third soldier.

 

I'm sorry to say your mystery re these photos not of Harry has in fact broadened rather than been solved :blink:

 

PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE DISCUSSION ABOUT EITHER OF THESE NON-KRRC SOLDIERS HERE.

 

 

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keithmroberts

To avoid further confusion this subject has been split from another thread.

 

Keith Roberts

GWF Team

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mindful45

Hi all

 

It is a while since I posted here. Been doing some ancestry research since. Found this photo of B Company of the Yeoman Rifles online, this features Harry Thompson on the back row. I post this here as you once asked about the Countess photo - so I hope this offers some clarity. This may be of use to anyone who is researching a relative in this particular platoon as well. It turns out that Harry was in B Company as at that time the boundaries between east and west Yorkshire were different. The west riding was much larger than it is today, extending as far as Goole.

 

Before I go, does anyone have any idea how we could locate Harry's medals? It seems that no-one in the family has them, is it possible to track these down, of is this 'mission impossible'? 

 

See attached photo then.

HarryBcompany.jpg

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MBrockway

Could you post a link to where you found this very useful photo please?

Cheers,

Mark

 

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mindful45

Hi all

I have spent the last ten months trying to identify Tommo's photo, and it has taken me on some twists and turns. So, if you read this - well it turns out that this is Arthur Thompson MM 46625 private in the Machine Gun Corps, who received his MM for action in the capture of Oppy Wood in 1917. You may like to know that his name is in the London Gazette. The uniform then is of the LINCOLNSHIRE REGIMENT NOT THE YORKS. That was a red-herring. However they too have a curved shoulder title so it is an easy mistake to make. It wasn't Harry then as first suggested. Tommo would not have known this as he had no idea about Arthur. Neither did I until I went to research the other brothers, and found his name. I have spent the last year then ruling out the possibility of Harry ever serving in the W or E Yorks, contacted the York Army Museum, the RGJ Museum, you name it. In this quest I have managed to identify a brother in law, and track down his Granddaughter - handing the photo to her. Ooooh allsorts.

 

So yes, Tommo's photo is of ARTHUR THOMPSON. I thought you would like to know. ;) Please amend this thread then as necessary.

All the best

Melissa (budding military expert now.....tongue in cheek comment).

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mindful45
On ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 13:25, MBrockway said:

Could you post a link to where you found this very useful photo please?

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark, sorry I missed this, I have been so caught up in this search that I missed your message  - the photo is in the Liddle Collection at the University of Leeds. This collection is open to the public to view and has an excellent collection of photos and artefacts pertaining to the Yeoman Rifles. I think this was donated by Gerard Dennis the chap who wrote 'A Kitchener Man's Bit'.  Ok, that is not a link, but if you google the Liddle Collection you will hopefully have some success. Or I hope you do.

 

 

On ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 13:25, MBrockway said:

 

 

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Alan24
On 17/06/2019 at 11:48, mindful45 said:

Hi all

 

It is a while since I posted here. Been doing some ancestry research since. Found this photo of B Company of the Yeoman Rifles online, this features Harry Thompson on the back row. I post this here as you once asked about the Countess photo - so I hope this offers some clarity. This may be of use to anyone who is researching a relative in this particular platoon as well. It turns out that Harry was in B Company as at that time the boundaries between east and west Yorkshire were different. The west riding was much larger than it is today, extending as far as Goole.

 

Before I go, does anyone have any idea how we could locate Harry's medals? It seems that no-one in the family has them, is it possible to track these down, of is this 'mission impossible'? 

 

See attached photo then.

 

 

The names are a bit fuzzy, could you tell me if Acting CSM or CSM John Brown(e) is in the photo.

He was with B Coy when they were at Barrosa Barracks, Aldershot Jan-Mar 1916. 

 

Thanks 

 

Alan.

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mindful45

I will take a look at it and get back to you. Might be tomorrow, or Wednesday. Is that ok?

 

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Alan24
2 hours ago, mindful45 said:

I will take a look at it and get back to you. Might be tomorrow, or Wednesday. Is that ok?

 

No problem, whenever you can.

 

Alan.

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mindful45

Hi, I have had a look at this photo and I can't seem to spot the name you are looking for.  Looking at the names of the officers, there doesn't appear to be a John Brown(e) present. However, he could have been in a different platoon within B Coy. I may have some other photos lurking somewhere, I shall have a look and see if any of these could be of help. 

 

As an aside have you heard of the Liddle Collection at the University of Leeds? They have photos of the Yeoman Rifles there, of the various companies etc. They may be able to assist you in this search.

 

 

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mindful45

However, there is a photo that I have spotted in 'A Kitchener Man's Bit' which might be helpful: Sergeants' Mess at Aldershot 1916.... So perhaps John Brown(e) could be present in this? Apparently the KRRC Association has a copy of this photograph, have you tried contacting them? They have a website and email......might be worth exploring. You could strike lucky.

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Alan24
9 hours ago, mindful45 said:

However, there is a photo that I have spotted in 'A Kitchener Man's Bit' which might be helpful: Sergeants' Mess at Aldershot 1916.... So perhaps John Brown(e) could be present in this? Apparently the KRRC Association has a copy of this photograph, have you tried contacting them? They have a website and email......might be worth exploring. You could strike lucky.

Thanks for looking.

I'll follow up those leads.

 

Alan.

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mindful45

Hi Alan

 

Here is the link to the KRRC association: 

www.krrcassociation.com

Their email is krrcassn@hotmail.com and their chairman is Mr R Frost MBE

 

However, the Royal Green Jackets museum in Winchester can be useful, as they offer a research service, now it is not cheap, I think it is £30. They will look for the soldier in question and send you whatever they find. Their web address is rgjmuseum.co.uk and you may find it useful to contact their curator (email is curator@rgjmuseum.co.uk).

 

I hope this will be of use to you in your search. Let me know how it goes. ;)

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MBrockway
On 13/10/2019 at 15:32, mindful45 said:

Hi all

I have spent the last ten months trying to identify Tommo's photo, and it has taken me on some twists and turns. So, if you read this - well it turns out that this is Arthur Thompson MM 46625 private in the Machine Gun Corps, who received his MM for action in the capture of Oppy Wood in 1917. You may like to know that his name is in the London Gazette. The uniform then is of the LINCOLNSHIRE REGIMENT NOT THE YORKS. That was a red-herring. However they too have a curved shoulder title so it is an easy mistake to make. It wasn't Harry then as first suggested. Tommo would not have known this as he had no idea about Arthur. Neither did I until I went to research the other brothers, and found his name. I have spent the last year then ruling out the possibility of Harry ever serving in the W or E Yorks, contacted the York Army Museum, the RGJ Museum, you name it. In this quest I have managed to identify a brother in law, and track down his Granddaughter - handing the photo to her. Ooooh allsorts.

 

So yes, Tommo's photo is of ARTHUR THOMPSON. I thought you would like to know. ;) Please amend this thread then as necessary.

All the best

Melissa (budding military expert now.....tongue in cheek comment).

 

Assuming you are talking about this picture ...

281718760_UnknownWYORKS-01.jpg.0e0f4863794ae2a0268cdc7f48d87df1.jpg

 

My eyes struggle to resolve his curved shoulder titles ...

7013278_UnknownWYORKS-03a(STclose-up).jpg.4fa3a90412ef0ea9c554a65baee8f140.jpg  168077408_UnknownWYORKS-03b(STclose-up).jpg.c11f1064a29956dc47dd3ec6bfedc1c6.jpg

 

... to be Lincolnshire Regiment.

 

Random fleaBay example (not guaranteed to be of period nor genuine!) ...

spacer.png

 

It still looks like E YORKS or W YORKS to me, e.g.

1686986322_WYorksRegtnon-TFST.jpg.3c5cf84e68de9b33e9243c72cadcc9cf.jpg

 

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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mindful45

Hi Mark

 

Yup THAT Photo, smiley face.

 

Well, the men that were in my family were Harry who as we know was in the KRRC. It seems that there are no records to ever indicate that Harry was in the W or E Yorks. I was sent the Register of Effects and whilst this is no conclusive it points to him only being in the KRRC (that and his medal roll). William was 14, and he was in the KOYLI, out of the brothers that leaves Arthur, and the Lincoln Regiment wore a curved shoulder title and different uniform to the KRRC. Arthur was 26 - this man looks about that age. There is no-one else, other than brothers in law. So, there was a Richard Andrew but he was in the KOYLI and an Albert Walker - also KOYLI. Looking at this evidence, the most likely candidate is Arthur. Backing this up, well he looks like our family - he has Thompson features, fair to say a brother then. There were no other sweethearts, the other sisters were too young. In addition, this photo was kept in a bible by a Great Aunt as Tommo said, and then my uncle also has a copy. So in our family we have at least two copies of this photo down two distinct lines...suggests a brother. Where it got confused is that this Great Aunt - Lena I think sent both the commemorative ribbon for Harry with this photo of Arthur, but that would make sense as she kept a keepsake from both of the brothers that she lost. They were a poor family so there were not many photos of either brother, the only one we have of Harry was sent to my Grandad as a child, which explains how we have the right one you see. Arthur was awarded a MM for his actions during the Battle of Oppy Wood, where he was also gassed unfortunately. He died of wounds (unrelated) after returning to the front in 1919 at Ronnsoy, blinded in one eye, shrapnel in his face, and other things - so he died in 1910 of these at Tooting Military Hospital. I suppose his photo would have been treasured, which explains being kept in a safe place - a bible.

 

However, if you are not convinced we could get a high resolution digital image done, 600 dpi and then find a graphic designer (anyone know one?) as they could digitally enhance this......The evidence though seems to point to Arthur. Afterall, he does look different to Harry doesn't he? ie in the photo I sent earlier this year? I will attach again for your perusal.....brothers then. Seems the simplest answer. ;) I have spent this year trying to prove that Tommo's photo was Harry, and trying to discover if he could have been in a Yorks Regiment before the KRRC. Now, Harry's name is on the Roll of Honour in Bradford City Hall, and this just says 'enlisted on 6th November in the KRRC'......Soooooo after finding Arthur's grave and reading the info supplied by the Old Veterans Association I think Arthur is the most likely candidate. Last of all, the photo has an address on the back stating this was taken in Ripon, apparently the 31st Division of which the Machine Gun Corps was a part had a camp there. That could be a clue? So I am 99% certain, as certain as I can be......

 

I have stared and stared at this shoulder title, over and over again, believe me. 

 

 

 

HarryKRRC .jpg

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mindful45

I suppose Arthur is the simplest most likely conclusion, as there were no men in the family who served in either the W or E Yorks, and as this photo was kept by two separate lines of the family then it suggests a close relative. With just 3 brothers then the logical conclusion is that it is Arthur, the uniform and shape of shoulder title fit. But yes, you can read all sorts into this shoulder title, I know. I did send it to the curator at York Army Museum who wasn't convinced it said Yorks at all...….but it may be subjective. Hard to read with the photo being so old.

Anyway back to Harry, I will attach his Register of Effects as I would be interested if anyone can decipher this and tell me what it indicates about his length of service. I shall add another document too...these seem to point to Harry only ever being in the KRRC Yeoman Rifles...I add them here to fill in the gaps re: Harry, to round out his story here.

 

You may be puzzled about Harry being mentioned on the Bradford Roll of Honour too, as he is mentioned on the Goole Roll of Honour Booklet. I asked the archives over there about this. The fact that he is not on the Goole Times 1919 list suggests that at the time of the outbreak of war he was no longer living in Goole, but the fact that he is listed in the booklet remains a mystery. Maybe there was someone over there who wanted him remembered, so they paid to have his name added, I heard that you had to pay to have names included. It is likely that Harry was living in Bradford during this time, and this is borne out by his casualty report which states his residence as 72 Ryan St (family address). 

 

I have been on a 'journey' this year, blimey. ;) 

Medaleligibility.jpg

Harrywargratuity.jpg

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MBrockway
On 22/10/2019 at 15:39, mindful45 said:

However, if you are not convinced we could get a high resolution digital image done, 600 dpi and then find a graphic designer (anyone know one?) as they could digitally enhance this...

 

 

Excellent idea.

 

My own graphics software skills would probably avoid the need to involve any graphic designer.

 

Also there are other Pals here who have good expertise in that area.

 

Let us know when you have the scan.

 

Mark

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mindful45

;) Yeah, just got to find someone with the 'skills' now...….that is the challenge. Watch this space.....

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MBrockway

We have the skills to sort out the image.  You just need to get a high res scan done.

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