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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

The Mystery of 2 Scabbard's


Steve1871

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HELLO EVERYONE.

Among many other thing's I collect,are Bayonets,the S71 (1871) has been my favorite..For those who are not too into bayonets,as the year model imply's, 1871,these bayonets were VERY outdated for the great war.But as war broke out,these bayonets,and ever the single shot M71 Mauser rifles were issued to reserve and other rear guard troops.Germany had a large number of Commision 88 rifles and had been in slow peaceful transition from the 88 to the Gew98 Mauser, Giving out older stuff let front line troops have the newer rifles/bayonets. Also,the S71 bayonet fit the 88 rifle,but not a perfect fit,so even more S71 bayonets were being issued until about 1916,when enough modern rifles and bayonets were made.

 

I am getting an old bayonet, it is an S71PFM (pioneerfaschinenmesser) or simply,a broad blade saw back .Far fewer of these were made. Now that that back ground is done, the scabbards

 The scabbard that this bayonet,actually a 65/71 with a 72 date,sadly,stitching screwed up,bad glue repair,but a real scabbard, it has unit mark 11.P.5.111

I being offered a spare scabbard of this type,but has SAME 11.P.5.111 mark.   PLEASE,BEFORE EVERYONE SCREAMS FAKE  FAKE  FAKE, please read my list,PRO/CON

1. yes I collector and would love it to be real

2.  It is possible,if scabbard lost in battle,carry around a large bayonet like that is not practical without scabbard,a new scabbard could be given out,the way Germans love to stamp units,proofs ect

could re-issue to weapon, (small chance of this)

3. The body on original (split seam) is correct leather,but this spare scabbard. the body does not look like real leather

4  Seller tell me he no think real leather,so offer a lot cheaper than an original leather one

5  This scabbard,the brass top,chape,throat  and bottom brass, final look a little strange,brass can do strange things in coloration,by itself and by reaction to certain cleaners,as well as age.this almost looks like copper with a brass wash,Just my thoughts

6. If fake,this scabbard,there is not enough demand to do a small (production run),and low demand,buyers,would be too expensive to do a completely new scabbard,then all the time to do just enough "wear" to it,then artificially age" it..Too much money and time,work. to make a profit

7. the stitching looks too neat like it too,is fake.too smooth and uniform.could be made by tooling,or a press.This too,would cost too much just to make a fake scabbard

8 I do not know if Germany,or anyone in 1914  1915 had anything like this imitation leather

9 if real leather,then some kind of protective coating that dried out but preserved it?

10 The brass could be real,I kind of think so,but the body still bugs me.If someone had this scabbard,but body was broken,then why go to the trouble of trying to find,,build a body with fake leather

  when leather is cheap. Many leather workers,big and small,belts,wallets,shoes,saddlery and others,could easily had done by pro for cheap.,stitching,lines and all

I sure some of  you could add to list,I just would like some ideas,thoughts the rest of you might have, and yes,the fonts on the number one may be a little off,not sure

P.S. the first one,Bayonet and scabbard are from same unit,just the weapon number of 111 is off

 

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And yes,the "repair" to add a prussian style bar instead standard teardrop or oval frog stud

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Steve

The brass parts are original except the frog stud which is wrong (Bavarian for a Prussian unit).

The unit marking is correct and has the liner under IT, SO THE ARMOURER TO "stay in line" during the stamping. 

During the end of 1960 there were still professionals who treatted the leather so close and according the art of the old leather makers. 

It is almost impossible to get 2 original scabbards for the same unit, unless the one is fake. 

Nevertheless send us some photos to see it please as still any scabbard for pfm bayonet is very rare. 

Great topic Steve... 

Regards. 

D. 

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Any way I ‘d like to have a holster like this fake or not.

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7 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

HELLO EVERYONE.

Among many other thing's I collect,are Bayonets,the S71 (1871) has been my favorite..

 

IMG_2608.JPG

 

 

Steve, you have quite possibly handled many more of these scabbards than most on GWF. But, apart from what D. says, where I would be rather dubious on the authenticity of this one are:

 

(1) the badly aligned and poorly spaced unit letters and numbers - even late Great War markings are better lined up than that!

(2) that fraktur - it is not a "Gothic" letter.

 

Yes, scabbards did  bend and they were replaced, and so duplicated unit numbers are possible... But this one looks "Too good to be true"... I would have slightly more confidence in this one if it was in the same condition as the one that came with the Pfm.

Edited by trajan
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Brass pink colour make me an idea thats was chemically aged.

Vinager and brass.....pink.

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