12th battalion royal fusiliers & AVC

[Paul GS of George]

Hi All

I have just found this site and was wondering if anybody is still active on here! 

I'm looking at trying to find out about my Grand father who served with the 12 battalion Royal Fusiliers in WW1,

and was wounded in Feb 1916. I do have his military record from Kew and his army number. I will be visiting the area 

this year and would like to visit some of the areas the battalion would have been stationed or fighting at.

 

Thanks for any help that may come

Edited 13 January by Paul GS of George
TITLE ADJUSTMENT

[Michelle Young]

Hello Paul and welcome. I've spilt this into a separate topic as the original post is very old. Pleas can you give as much information as possible about your Grandfather.

Michelle 

[Paul GS of George]

Hi Michelle 

 

Thank you very much for responding. 

The information I have so far is. 

GEORGE H ARNOLD

Service No 3545

In the 12th battalion, there is a record of him being injured on the 11th of February 1916 and he did return home at some point. Would love to know where he was while he was on the front. Think he may of been injured in Belgium at Wulverghem. Planing on touring over there later this year. 

Thank you again Paul

[BarryF]

Hi Paul,

 

Your relative is not recorded as having served in the 12th (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).  There is no George H Arnold with the regimental number 3545 on their roll.  There is a George James and his regimental number is 2536.

 

But I do see from his Medal Index Card that he was "Royal Fusiliers" (3545) and then went on to serve in the Army Veterinary Corps with the service number SE. 33632.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards,

 

Barry

Researching 12th (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment)

www.12rf.org

[Paul GS of George]

Hi Barry 

Thanks for looking into this, so he did sign up to the fusilier but moved to the veterinary core. Would that be due to his injury? He lost an eye at some point after joining up. 

 

Thanks again Paul 

[charlie962]

10 hours ago, BarryF said:

Your relative is not recorded as having served in the 12th (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). 

The report Paul refers to is this Casualty List, noted as report received from Base 11/2/15.  1916 

 

Just to note that Paul has a parallel thread running under Veterinary

 

Charlie

Edited 13 January by charlie962

[Paul GS of George]

Charlie 

That's brilliant, where did you find that? 

Ps am I confusing things with the two threads!! 

 

Thanks 

[charlie962]

11 minutes ago, Paul GS of George said:

Ps am I confusing things with the two threads!! 

You risk such if you haven't made it clear to others. I know you have divided the subject but discussion  best kept in one place. Can I suggest that you post on the other thread that you are now putting all onto this thread? You can edit the title of this thread to say... 'and AVC'

 

Copies of casualty lists are available on several sources- FindmyPast,Genealogist, ForcesWarRecords and Newspaper Archives.

 

Charlie

Edited 13 January by charlie962

[BarryF]

First - many thanks Charlie.

 

Hi Paul,

I have had a quick look for some info. 

 

1.  Nothing regarding his injury except a Casualty List index entry:

G H Arnold
Private 3545 
12th Battalion Royal Fusiliers (London Regiment)
Incident Date:  11/2/1915 (? - see below)
Listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the War Office from 11th February 1916
Entitled to wear a Wound Stripe

 

2.  Medal Index Card:

Confirms he was entitled to the Trio.
Also, his first date in theatre was 1/9/1915 (NB the same date as 12RF - the Bn I research)
The MIC points to his two Medal Rolls (below), both drawn up by the Royal Army Veterinary Corps.

 

3.  RAVC BWVM Roll:

33632 Pte George Henry Arnold (previously 3545 Royal Fusiliers, 6016 20th London Regiment)

 

4.  RAVC 1914-15 Star Roll:

3545 Pte G H Arnold Royal Fusiliers
Date of Disembarkation 1/9/15 (1 - e.g. France/Belgium)
Regtl Number SE, 33632 Pte
Transferred to Class 'Z' Reserve 19/6/19

 

Some questions raised:

 

Was he in the 20th Londons?  His Medal Roll states he was - in the 20th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment - a unit of Britain's Territorial Force.  If so he may have seen early service but there is no mention so far of a disembarkation date earlier than 1/9/1915.

 

He went to France the same day as the 12th Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).  There is often much confusion between the Royal Fusiliers and the London Regiment.  So he could be of interest to me in my 12RF research.

 

The Casualty List incident date of 1915 - was he wounded in the UK while training at Depot or in Base camp?

 

He was discharged in 1919 - any wounds allowing him to continue his service in the RAVC.

 

Hope the above helps.

 

Barry

[charlie962]

I get the impression from looking at similar service numbers that the AVC SE number was issued Dec1917/Jan 1918. If that is correct then would he have had another renumbering in the RF in 1917 ?

 

Interesting that the wounding (c 11/2/15) appears to be before his date of first service abroad (1/9/15). If it was an accident in training, wouldn't it be reported as 'accidentally' ?

 

Charlie

Edited 13 January by charlie962

[Paul GS of George]

Barry 

What can I say, the information you have found is just amazing to me. 

As for the questions this raises I honestly have nothing to go on. George was born around 1891 so possibly he could of been associated with the territorials? I have some very vague memories of showing me his army badges and The royal fusiliers was the only thing I kind of remember. At the time of joining up his family lived in North London I think it was Edmonton. If his wound happened prior to going to France could that be why he was special enlisted into the AVC!!  What else can I do to find out any more, or do you think the trail will run dry. 

 

Thank you so much 

[charlie962]

Mea culpa- the casualty list is 1916 not 1915 which makes a lot more sense !!!

[BarryF]

Hi Paul,

 

Two quick questions ...

 

You mention records about your relative that you obtained at Kew.  Which records could you find?

 

Also, why did you think he had been wounded at Wulverghem?  This could help decide whether he was 12RF.

 

Thanks,

 

Barry

[BarryF]

6 hours ago, charlie962 said:

The report Paul refers to is this Casualty List, noted as report received from Base 11/2/15. ??

 

Just to note that Paul has a parallel thread running under Veterinary

 

Charlie

Am very grateful to you, Charlie, for this scan.  It adds weight to GH Arnold being 12RF (the Bn I am researching) and not London Regiment at the time because all the other men of 12RF mentioned here are on my 12RF Roll, except Keating but I'll look in to that.

Regards, Barry

[charlie962]

It was puzzeling about entry dates that got me checking 15 Star roll and this is what i noted:

 

Glover W  5407         1/9/15      12th
Buchanan H 17872    6/10/15  became RE WR335923
Keating J 4463        7/10/15  12th Bn became RE 156587
Lambert JJ 18031    6/10/15  12th Bn then 5th Bn
Main WT G/2942        1/9/15   12th Bn then 5th Bn
Pittaway FA G/3018    1/9/15   12th Bn
Silcox C 5078        1/9/15   12th Bn then 1st

 

 

[kenf48]

The 20th London was a Reserve Battalion.  It seems likely, if he lost an eye, he was downgraded to Medical Category ‘B’, any renumbering was not relevant to the administration of the issue of medals.  Although there is no evidence where there are records for the RAVC it seems close numbers served at home in the Reserve Depots.  These men were in medical category Bi or Bii.

 

A consideration therefore, and nothing more that his active service in a theatre of war was solely with the 12th Battalion RF.  ( Given the original post was prompted by a desire to visit where he served).

 

The war diary mentions two men wounded during a relief on the 11th February 1916.  They are not named.

 

Ken

 

 

[BarryF]

12 hours ago, charlie962 said:

It was puzzeling about entry dates that got me checking 15 Star roll and this is what i noted:

 

Glover W  5407         1/9/15      12th
Buchanan H 17872    6/10/15  became RE WR335923
Keating J 4463        7/10/15  12th Bn became RE 156587
Lambert JJ 18031    6/10/15  12th Bn then 5th Bn
Main WT G/2942        1/9/15   12th Bn then 5th Bn
Pittaway FA G/3018    1/9/15   12th Bn
Silcox C 5078        1/9/15   12th Bn then 1st

 

 

12RF (the service battalion of the City of London Regiment) went to France on the 1st September 1915.  Within weeks they were in the Battle of Loos and suffered heavy losses 25th-28th September.  On the 8th October the Battalion received a fresh draft of 448 NCO's and men.  So those 12RF with disembarkation dates of 6th or 7th October would in all probability have been in that draft having first arrived at an Infantry Base Depot (possibly 24 IBD?) awaiting posting to 12RF.

[BarryF]

10 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The 20th London was a Reserve Battalion.  It seems likely, if he lost an eye, he was downgraded to Medical Category ‘B’, any renumbering was not relevant to the administration of the issue of medals.  Although there is no evidence where there are records for the RAVC it seems close numbers served at home in the Reserve Depots.  These men were in medical category Bi or Bii.

 

A consideration therefore, and nothing more that his active service in a theatre of war was solely with the 12th Battalion RF.  ( Given the original post was prompted by a desire to visit where he served).

 

The war diary mentions two men wounded during a relief on the 11th February 1916.  They are not named.

 

Ken

 

 

Those seven men were wounded on other days in February - the 11.2.1916 is the date of the Casualty List, I think.  E.g.  Harry Buchanan was wounded on the 3rd February 1916 - the event was recorded by his Company Commander (Capt JV Wilson OC No 1 Coy).  Capt Wilson also recorded that William Main was wounded on the 4th February ... and again on the 11th March 1916.

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, BarryF said:

11.2.1916 is the date of the Casualty List, I think

Not exactly. The List was published later in Feb but up until early 1916 a second date was given in the caslist- "date reported from base". So there is still likely to be a few days earlier that the actual wounding took place.