BEF Father & Son enlistments & family links to NZ soldiers

[SBW]

9 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Hi All

Sydney George born 2.4.1890, christened 21.4.1895 Cong. Church, died  16th January, 1948, buried 21st Jan., probate granted to his wife  Eva May (nee Chant,married 25th Feb, 1918 Congregational Church, Stoke sub H) photo below she died 5th March 1995, Cannington, Somerset. She had remarried  a Harry Warr,1897-1977 in 1956, Yeovil, Somerset, 7c,735.. Eva May George-Warr left £109,444.

1939 Register  Eva May George b.20.1.1895, a grocer @ The Bakery East St., Bridgwater, Somerset with husband Sydney b. 2.4.1890, a Baker (as per 1911 census also) 

 

9 hours ago, The Inspector said:

On page 591 of the NZ Army, WW1 Reserve Rolls, second entry down "George, Sydney, Baker, Arrowtown", Reserve Roll 1917 2nd. Div

 

It is so easy to get the George families mixed up, as a number have done on Ancestry. The NZ connection throws doubt on a few of the trees. BUT some of the relationships are correct.      

 

Barry, thank you for all the additional info info and photos. Very interesting. The piece of info I am wondering about is mention of the  Reserve Roll 1917 Sydney George, Baker at Arrowtown. Sydney George, the Tunneller, was in France In 1917, theoretically his name shouldn't be on a reserve list as he was already serving.  He went with the Tun Coy Main Body in Dec 1915. He was a labourer in the North Island. Arrowtown is in the SI, where the Reserve Listed Sydney George is noted as a Baker. 

 

[Madmeg]

On 01/02/2019 at 14:07, SBW said:

The Inspector: Thank you for your time and interest in the story of two Kiwi Tunnellers who have a UK connection. In an earlier Post from Madmeg, as well as Sydney and Roland's parents names, she also provides siblings for their father Robert Edwin George. Included on the list is Rotchford George. So two different researchers have come up with the same answers, which is always a good thing:-)

 

Great that you have provided more with news that Sydney & Roland's uncle served; John Rochford/Rotchford George b. Jan 1876 d.6.7.1918. 336th Brigade RFA.

 

We can add this information to Madmeg's research showing Sydney & Roland's UK-based brother Edward also served. Madmeg provided 1911 census info; ROYAL ARTILLERY DISTRICT STAFF AND 93RD COMPANY ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY, ECHELON BARRACKS, COLOMBO. 

Can you confirm Sydney & Roland's brother Edward also served in WW1?

 

George Rayner: Yes, father's was known as Robert Edwin. wife was Madeline/Maddlen nee Shoemark.

 

Madmeg, can you please double check that i have interpreted your research correctly:-) This genealogy stuff turns my head inside out:-)

 

Thanks heaps to all.

 

Sue

https://www.facebook.com/NZTunnellingCompany/

 

Yup that looks like my interpretation.

 

I had a look at Sydney's attestation papers- I think it shows him in Auckland doesn;t it? so nowhere near Arrowtown- another Sydney maybe? Haven't had a look at the attestation papers again- got into another tricky one an lost track of this a bit

[The Inspector]

9 hours ago, SBW said:

 

 

Barry, thank you for all the additional info info and photos. Very interesting. The piece of info I am wondering about is mention of the  Reserve Roll 1917 Sydney George, Baker at Arrowtown. Sydney George, the Tunneller, was in France In 1917, theoretically his name shouldn't be on a reserve list as he was already serving.  He went with the Tun Coy Main Body in Dec 1915. He was a labourer in the North Island. Arrowtown is in the SI, where the Reserve Listed Sydney George is noted as a Baker. 

 

Hi

I agree, that's just what Ancestry threw up. What is Sydney's occupation on his attestation papers? He was a Baker in 1911 and 1939. The Sydney George listed is the only one without a middle name and the only Baker. The preface to the Roll states it was printed during Aug, Sept and Oct 1917 and may include individuals who should no longer be included. It was compiled from the personal schedules furnished under the National Registration Act, 1915 and the enrolment cards under the Military Service Act, 1916. It also states that some men "may have left the Dominion either with the New Zealand Forces or otherwise..." HOWEVER it can't be him, or it shouldn't, as there is a Classification before his name ie. "D" which indicates a reservist with three children. Unless someone knows different !

Does anyone know where Sydney's Regt. was on 25th Feb, 1918? That's when he was married to Eva in Somerset. 

The marriage cert.5c,653, Yeovil, Somerset. 1st qtr 1918 Sidney George, Eva M Chant. should provide some more inormation. When was he demobilised? Do we know when he emigrated to NZ, can't find any records whatsoever.

Regards Barry 

 

Edited 2 February , 2019 by The Inspector

[SBW]

 

Hi Barry, apologies for slow reply. A few hiccups with internet woes.

 

The reservist info is a bit of a puzzle, but Tun Coy Sydney GEORGE was a ‘Baker’, as you have noted. His military file attestation form notes him as a ‘labourer’ working near New Plymouth. 

 

His intended address on his return to NZ was c/o W G Shoemark, New Plymouth. That will likely be his mother Madeline’s brother. However, this is crossed out and a later 9.5.21 Somersetshire address is given as The Bakery Cannington Tea Bridegwater. This suggests that he was back in the UK in 1921 and confirms he was a Baker as per your own research. 

 

On closer inspection, his file also notes that on his return to NZ in May 1919, he was appted Ship’s Baker.

 

He was discharged 28.07.19.  

 

A little titbit of interest is that his file notes that at one stage he was incorrectly appted Lance Corp. On his file; ‘Should have read 4/1426 Sap George R’. This was his brother. It doesn't say if he received his brothers extra wages:-)

 

Re 25.02.18 date of marriage, GEORGE was granted leave 19.02.18 – 8.03.18.

 

He was also granted leave to the UK 15.12.18 ie he was ‘home’ with his wife for Christmas. From there he went into Sling, then Larkhill and finally back to Sling again before his final 16 May 1919 departure from the UK.

 

All NZ WW1 military files can be viewed online at no cost. Go to https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ and type in a service number.

 

You can also view the Tun Coy War diary here. Type in ‘Tunnelling Company’.

 

At the time Sydney married, the Tun Coy was still in the Arras area and work included being back in the Arras caverns. Following his February marriage, Spr Sydney George returned to the Tun Coy unit in time for the German Spring Offensive in March 1918.

[SBW]

On 02/02/2019 at 23:09, Madmeg said:

Yup that looks like my interpretation.

 

I had a look at Sydney's attestation papers- I think it shows him in Auckland doesn;t it? so nowhere near Arrowtown- another Sydney maybe? Haven't had a look at the attestation papers again- got into another tricky one an lost track of this a bit

THANKS Madmeg, I appreciate the check. Sydney was in the New Plymouth area. Based on the infor re being a Baker, i think its the same person. perhaps Sydney was in the SI before moving to NP. Might never know the answer to Reservist info...

 

[Madmeg]

3 hours ago, SBW said:

THANKS Madmeg, I appreciate the check. Sydney was in the New Plymouth area. Based on the infor re being a Baker, i think its the same person. perhaps Sydney was in the SI before moving to NP. Might never know the answer to Reservist info...

 

Sidney Thorne George is shown with an Auckland address as is his wife (Mrs ST George- how helpful!)- I'm struggling a bit with the occupation- but is efinitely ISN'T baker- share.... something. /Share broker? service runs from 28/11/15 to 16/1/17. Theatres operation Eygpt 1915-16, Eygptian EF 1916 , Western Front 1916. He was discharged as unfit post appendicitis- he's not looking like your man is he? Could he be the reservist? Except he's not Arrowtown either and attested for the ? ? Rifle Brigade at Trentham- he's shown as a Platoon Sgt National Reserve on one of the pages.

He married Isabel Florence Clarke (or Florence isabel depending on which page you are on) in Auckland 22/4/11, three children are listed.

 

Then there is your Sydney George of New Plymouth.

 

Could the reserve roll entry be mixing up to two? Sidney T would seem to meet your "Reservist with three chilren " requirements- although I have no idea where Arrowtown is coming from- someone in a rush mistranscribed Auckland??

 

 

On another note  Roland Sydney Shoemark of new Plymouth served WW2

 

Ancestry shows a Sydney George in Wakatipu 1911 and 1914 in the electoral rolls- might be worth a look? Wakatipu would cover Arrowtown

 

Find a grave has a burial for Roland george at Naseby ex NZEF (index says oamaru butnotes show Naseby)

Edited 4 February , 2019 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

Here's the embarkation roll entry from Auckland War Museum (when I try to paste the link it just puts in the image) , both Sy/ineys shown. Plus some other Georges- including Roland.

 

Edited 4 February , 2019 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

On 26/01/2019 at 08:54, SBW said:

Hi Simon

Great to hear from you, thank you. No, I am not a relative, my interest is in the men who served in the NZ Tunnelling Coy. I have a Facebook page called the NZ Tunnelling Company. I see that a James Shoemark from New Plymouth served in the NZDF and was killed at Gallipoli. He had Somerset connections and his medals were sent to a daughter living there. Perhaps he is also connected to Madeline George and another brother of hers? I would love to know more, if you are happy to email me direct suebakerwilson@gmail.com. I am very much interested in being able to tease out a better picture of the two brothers who served in the Tun Coy and especially to confirm family members both in NZ and the UK who served. I am also still hoping we can confirm Madeline's husband served, along with his three sons. Many thanks, Sue.

James Charles Shoemark- died 1915 embarkation roll- note address of Fulford Road NP (same as Sydney George and of his wifeback in Somerset! ) could this be Madeline's brother Jim from the 1891 census? he might be a bit old?

[SBW]

Hi Madmeg, thanks for all the insights. Sidney George Thorne was a brother to a tunneller. Their surname is sometimes hyphenated. They were known as Thorn George/Thorn-George rather than surname George and were part of a well known Auckland family. Between us all, we seem to be teasing out a story of the wider George family having military links including prior to WW1 as well as a story of a close NZ relationship between two sets of in-laws ie the Shoemark and George families. But, we aren't getting any closer to finding out whether UK father Robert Edwin George served, as well as his sons, nephews and brothers:-) can you suggest a way forward to check Brit WW1 rolls for his name? Thanks heaps, Sue.

[Madmeg]

On 05/02/2019 at 08:42, SBW said:

Hi Madmeg, thanks for all the insights. Sidney George Thorne was a brother to a tunneller. Their surname is sometimes hyphenated. They were known as Thorn George/Thorn-George rather than surname George and were part of a well known Auckland family. Between us all, we seem to be teasing out a story of the wider George family having military links including prior to WW1 as well as a story of a close NZ relationship between two sets of in-laws ie the Shoemark and George families. But, we aren't getting any closer to finding out whether UK father Robert Edwin George served, as well as his sons, nephews and brothers:-) can you suggest a way forward to check Brit WW1 rolls for his name? Thanks heaps, Sue.

I'm not great at the military records- someone else on here can probably help?

 

You could try the National Archives, ancestry , FMP and Familysearch for medal cards? I am suggesting all of them because I have found some ommisions in the past so checking all of them is more likely to get a hit for you. Ancestry will let you look at the medal cards if you find some likely ones and there may be an entry on the medal Rolls (subscription needed)

 

Did you have a look at the ancestry electoral roll entry for Sydney George 1911 and 1914 in Wakatipu? this is probably your Arrowtown man. If your ydney can be shown to be elsewhere in those years (electoral roll again?) I still wonder if there has been a mix up between the two Si/ydneys on the roll and they have been mixed into one man.

 

[SBW]

Kia ora Madmeg, many thanks for your full reply of how to best to research BEF enlistments. I am not a genealogist, so don't belong to Ancestry, NZ Genealogy and any other need to pay/join avenues that might help. That may have to change unless someone else your side of the world can help ID Robert Edwin George:-) I'll check Brit National Archives. My priority is confirming a Brit father served. We know his NZ-based sons did. In some ways, its irrelevant whether Tunneller Sydney George was in Arrowtown or not. The emphasis is on the military story of a British-born family serving in both the BEF & NZEF. Confirming the father served, along with his sons, would also help highlight the older soldier story, rather than the more well known 'lost generation' & 'doomed youth' narrative. 

 

Thanks for all your help, I very much appreciate the time you have already put into helping me with my query!

[Madmeg]

On 07/02/2019 at 11:42, SBW said:

Kia ora Madmeg, many thanks for your full reply of how to best to research BEF enlistments. I am not a genealogist, so don't belong to Ancestry, NZ Genealogy and any other need to pay/join avenues that might help. That may have to change unless someone else your side of the world can help ID Robert Edwin George:-) I'll check Brit National Archives. My priority is confirming a Brit father served. We know his NZ-based sons did. In some ways, its irrelevant whether Tunneller Sydney George was in Arrowtown or not. The emphasis is on the military story of a British-born family serving in both the BEF & NZEF. Confirming the father served, along with his sons, would also help highlight the older soldier story, rather than the more well known 'lost generation' & 'doomed youth' narrative. 

 

Thanks for all your help, I very much appreciate the time you have already put into helping me with my query!

Not me- there's people much better than me on researching WW1 files- that's why I'm here! to pick peoples' brains for myself :-D. I've learnt a lo but not having subsciptions does slow you down a bit. Medal cards is about ,my level - it's not very sophisticated. War diaries are available for download at Uk National Archives but you have to know the Regiment and it will cost (Australian War Diaries are available free of charge on aussie sites- not sure NZ war diaries)

Are you NZ based? That's where I am - suggest you pop down your local library (where ever in the world you are) and see if they have a library subscripton for ancestry and/or find my past- many do- that gets you free access from the library.

For free searches - familysearch (the LDS church) and LDS libraries based in some churches, FreeBMD. freeREG and FreeCEN, Index searches on FMP and Ancestry are free but give limited info. As you are not a geneaology freak ;-) I would suggest you check out Cyndis List online - a huge collection of links and pointers to other web sites. 

I haven;t found anything for Robert Edwin from my searches but good luck.