Rare German Regimental Marking, part 2

[Steve1871]

My first post on this type was a Conversion of the M71Karbineto use a bayonet, thanks to many people on GWF, especially , The Prussian, Trajan, and Shippingsteel,  we found out it was Wurttenberg Landjaeger Korps Kommando, the Karbines were converted around 1878 I believe.

 

Now I got a few pic's of my friends Karbine, A lot nicer. Also, a different type of unit, not sure what it stands for. K.L.K 287, my Karbine is Steyr made , his is Mauser made. My friend and I wonder if his piece is new made this way, because it has matching serial numbers , including nose gard/lug no. 483

[shippingsteel]

Hey Steve, this carbine will be marked to the same unit (Wurttemburg Landjaeger) just using a different format, as seen towards the end of that earlier link posted by the Prussian. See https://www.seitengewehr.de/landjaegerkorps.pdf

 

We don't know why they used the 2 types of unit marking but they basically mean the same thing. KLK stands for Koniglich Landjaeger Korps.

A couple of points of interest to note with this weapon ...

1. Different maker being Gebr. Mauser Oberndorf

2. Different cypher being the Crown W for Wilhelm

3. While serial numbers are the same 483 the fonts used on the nosecap/frontband and the screw in buttplate are of different font. This is especially noticeable in the 3. This would suggest that some "forced matching" has been done at some stage. Hard to say when that would have occurred.?

[trajan]

4 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

... We don't know why they used the 2 types of unit marking but they basically mean the same thing. KLK stands for Koniglich Landjaeger Korps.

 

One possibility is that Steve's mark is after the November 1918 Revolution - William II abdicated and the Königlich was dropped as the unit then became the "Landjägerkorps". Such is what one German source implies. By contrast, the one illustrated in the link sent by the Prussian and used on the carbine above, "K.L.K.", which does stand for - as said - Königlich Württembergische Landjägerkorps is a pre-1918 marking. 

Edited 9 January , 2019 by trajan

[trajan]

Should have thought to do this earlier... Carter volume 4, 286-287, "Seitengewehr fuer wuerttemburgishes Gendarmeriegewehr 1871"

 

The Gendarmeriegewehr 1871, "...introduced in Wurttemberg during 1876 ... It was similar to the Karabiner M.71 but with a bayonet attachment bar on the right hand side of the nosecap." Carter goes on to say that the bayonet for this is like the Wurttemberg Jaeger Yataghan M/59, but brass hilted. Made by Samuel Hoppe Sohn, Solingen and usually marked K.L.K.

 

Carter reports three marked examples: K.L.K 583; K.L.K. 558; and K.L.K. 645. Andy's links give us K.L.K.172 plus 558 again.

 

Julian

[msdt]

Hi Julian,

On the basis that unit marks are likely to be applied when the unit first gets the rifles, by 1918 these rifles would have been seriously obsolete.

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

Just now, msdt said:

... On the basis that unit marks are likely to be applied when the unit first gets the rifles, by 1918 these rifles would have been seriously obsolete.

 

Tony,

 

I couldn't agree more really - but the LKK was re-formed into a Gendarmerie unit after November 1918, and dropped its 'royal' title, after which I don't know what happened.

 

There is a book on this unit - Walter Wannenwetsch: Das Württembergische Landjägerkorps und die reichsdeutsche Gendarmerie in Württemberg mit einer Rückschau auf die Anfänge der Landespolizei, Stuttgart 1986 - which might have the answer.

 

The thing is that while "seriously obsolete", I am not at all certain without checking what the Allied Commission allowed police units to have post 1919. I.e., if a rifle firing an obsolete cartridge was it still counted towards the firearms limits specified in the V.Treaty? I am thinking here of how the Turkish forestry guards used - I think it was Gras rifles? - so that if stolen, nobody could find the ammunition for them on the open market! 

 

Julian

[trajan]

Checked with the V.Treaty - it just talks about rifles and carbines for what becomes the Reichswehr, nothing on police and/or gendarmerie units... Hmmm... Even so, it seems that L.K.L. would be correct for pre November 1918, and L.K.K. for afterwards. But I do take your point!