WingCo Posted 8 January , 2019 Share Posted 8 January , 2019 Two photos for RFC experts to look at. A distant relative, John Roger James (b 4 Sep 1893 – extreme right on the first photo) joined the RFC on 20 Oct 1915, as a Carpenter and Joiner. He was appointed to the rank of ‘Airman, First Class’ on 1 Sep 1916, presumably on completion of training, and was sent to France to join 28 Sqn on 4 Oct 1917 as a Rigger (Aero). 28 Sqn, at the time, was at Droglandt airfield in West Flanders operating over the Ypres salient. The photo postcard has a French manufacturers’ address on the back and he has written his colleagues names on the back, as per the file name. 28 Sqn was sent to Milan in early Nov 1917 and the RAF Museum has speculated that this photo may be as late as 1918/19 when 28 Sqn was at Sacredo, Italy, which belies the manufacturers stamp. We cannot determine the cap badges – one may be ASC, others may be RAF which would date the photo post 1 Apr 1918. Most of the men are wearing L/Cpl stripes, or are these ‘Airman 1st class’ rankings of the time? Can anyone comment on badges, uniforms, date or place? The second photo of a RFC officer (Captain?) wearing MC ribbon on the 1912 pattern maternity jacket is in my family archive. No name or message has been written on the back of it. The photo was produced by Russell & Sons of 42 Osborne Rd, Southsea - photographers 'By Appointment' at the time. 28 Sqn was formed at RAF Gosport - right next door to Southsea - on 7 Nov 1915. I can only speculate that my relative, ‘Jack’ James, was ‘in training’ on 28 Sqn - sometime between Oct 1915 and his elevation to ‘Airman, First Class’ on 1 Sep 1916 - and that he worked on this pilot's aircraft, perhaps receiving the photo as a memento or in gratitude for services rendered during that time or afterwards in Flanders or Italy. The RAF museum cannot identify this officer. Is there anyone out there who might know who this officer might be? (These photos have been uploaded to the Gallery as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 January , 2019 Share Posted 8 January , 2019 (edited) The group photo shows mostly men from the ASC, most of whom are motorised drivers, going by the goggles on one cap and double breasted great coats. The weather and the simplified SD jackets that most wear, together with soft topped trench caps, suggests a date in late 1916. However, the two men seated far right in the front row do appear to have a different cap badge that might be RFC, although the absence of distinctive cloth shoulder titles would be odd (though not impossible). Despite the clothing described the late date in 1918 Italy is not impossible. The Officer is indeed a Captain and unquestionably RFC, given his iconic ‘maternity’ (so-called) jacket, wings badge, breeches and typical field service cap. Your conjecture that he might be a pilot directly associated with your forebear seems eminently likely to me. Edited 8 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 8 January , 2019 Share Posted 8 January , 2019 I would date the photo to after the formation of the RAF in April 1918. The two men seated far right look to be wearing the early embroidered pattern cap badges formerly worn by the RNAS. The rest of the group being ASC. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 January , 2019 Share Posted 8 January , 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: I would date the photo to after the formation of the RAF in April 1918. The two men seated far right look to be wearing the early embroidered pattern cap badges formerly worn by the RNAS. The rest of the group being ASC. Pete. What badges were cloth Pete? I had thought that the first RAF airmen badges were in gilding metal. The WRAF had cloth badges and the officers a hybrid cloth and gilt. Edited 9 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 9 January , 2019 Share Posted 9 January , 2019 9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: What badges were cloth Pete? I had thought that the first RAF airmen badges were in gilding metal. The gilding metal RAF badge was introduced in May 1919. The first pattern RAF airmen's badge is the red embroidered eagle you have shown in the RNAS thread (the RNAS used an anchor - red eagles on RNAS headgear are post-April 1918). Corporals and above had a gold wire eagle; WOI's used the same as officers, without rank bars on the cap. August 1918 saw a change to an embroidered yellow worsted cap badge for NCOs, presumably owing to shortages of gold wire. The below cap is ex- my collection and is an ex-RNAS/ early RAF - at the time when there was a complete mish-mash and overlap of RFC, RNAS and RAF uniform worn, which went on later than you might think. The cap itself is the pattern worn by Class III Ratings or acting or unconfirmed Petty Officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 January , 2019 Share Posted 9 January , 2019 (edited) That’s very interesting GT, thank you for posting. I’ve never seen the yellow worsted badge that you refer to. Not that long ago I procured a paperback reference book supposed to cover the RAF insignia from the beginning to contemporary times. It contains the detail of the officer’s and WOs initial metal badge but leaves a lot else to be desired. NB. Do you think that the badges in the photo are cloth as Pete has suggested? They don’t seem to be either blue and red, or yellow, given the photographic process of the time. There is quite a good display of RAF headdress badges here: http://www.britairforce.com/raf_capbadges_1.htm Edited 9 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 9 January , 2019 Share Posted 9 January , 2019 6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I’ve never seen the yellow worsted badge that you refer to. Me neither. Although there's a sealed pattern, one wonders if it was issued in limited numbers (if at all). 6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Do you think that the badges in the photo are cloth as Pete has suggested? No. And although the angle is unhelpful, I don't see why it's not ASC like the others. It would also beg the question as to how/ why a lone RFC type would end up in the company of transport (etc) by himself. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 January , 2019 Share Posted 9 January , 2019 The yellow badges must be exceedingly rare then. I’m fairly confident the two men seated far right have cap badges other than ASC, even allowing for the oblique angle. That said, I would expect to see cloth shoulder badges and their association with ASC men on that scale does seem a bit arbitrary I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 9 January , 2019 Share Posted 9 January , 2019 RE would be my next best bet, given the seemingly short title of the guy far right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingCo Posted 16 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2019 Dear All, I most grateful for all your comments and contributions re my photos Thank you. Wingco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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