WW1 TERRITORIAL FORCE - North Riding of Yorkshire

[Mespot18thDiv]

I am trying to place my Grandad’s early service, without any confirming data and would like to take this opportunity to ‘sound out’, what I have come up with.

Hearsay:  his Son said that he had joined up in York with his mates and was taken on as a Farrier*, presumably pre-war, as he was surprised to find himself enlisted when war broke out - noted as serving from 1915, no Silver Star Medal .

It’s quite possible that he spent work related time in York ( Porter for the North Eastern Railway) but his home town was Scarborough, in the North Riding of Yorkshire.

I have read:  prewar, you were only allowed to join units close to where you live;  pre 1917, soldiers typically served with a serial number under 10,000, which he may have had – 8377. [Complication, the first regiment and SN listed on his MIC, have been shown to belong to a young man, of the same regiment (and the same previous employer NER – but in Leeds), who died in France after my Grandad enlisted.  So, as the regiment (KRRC) is incorrect, the SN may be also]

I have recently read a North Eastern Daily Gazette diary article about a Territorial Force Annual Camp, 26 July – 9 August 1913, in Redcar.  It says that, “…The camp is that of the Durham and York Brigade, and the units attached to it are the 4^th and 5^th Yorks, the 5^th Durham and 4^th East Yorks, with Ambulance and Army Service Corps.”.  

 

They also quoted, “… 5th Yorks Regiment, HQ in Scarborough quoted to be, "... not so strong, the figures being less than 650. …",

I see that the full name for the 5^th Yorks Regiment, is the 5^th Battalion, Alexandra, Princess of Wales’ Own (Yorkshire Regiment).

This is confusing, as I see the Yorkshire Hussars with their HQ in York, also have this title.  Although I see part of it joined the 50^th (Northumbrian) Division, along with the 5^th Yorks. Regiment.

This is where I am taking a leap.  I think he was a member of the pre-war 5^th Yorkshire Regiment Territorial Force and then approached the Yorkshire Hussars in York to work with the horses, when he found he had been committed to war.  (He did say to my young Brother  that he looked after the horses). 

It appears that he was not there all that long as he ended up in a MGC unit, in Mesopotamia, but that is another story.

* Trained by his Blacksmith Father.

 

 

Pte John William Ward, dob:  4 5 1890, born Stainton Dale, Scarborough

18^th Indian Battalion MGC. 11543 – in Kurdistan, Mesopotamia until 1920

 

Picture below:  National Army Museum Collection   

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1981-06-79-1

[ss002d6252]

If he was a territorial on the outbreak of war he would be embodied with that unit and wouldn't have been given the choice to offer his services elsewhere.

 

Territorial infantry battalions had large numbers of horses and would need men experienced with their care.

 

Craig

Edited 8 January , 2019 by ss002d6252

[Mespot18thDiv]

Thank you for your reply.  The Yorkshire Regiment - Green Howards it is then.  Sounds sensible, barracks in Scarborough until recently.  I think I will be away to their museum in Richmond, there must be some photographs.  

[Scalyback]

1 hour ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

I see that the full name for the 5^th Yorks Regiment, is the 5^th Battalion, Alexandra, Princess of Wales’ Own (Yorkshire Regiment).

 

This is confusing, as I see the Yorkshire Hussars with their HQ in York, also have this title.

 

No completely different names. 

Yorkshire Hussars (Alexandra, Princess of Wales’s Own)

Are Cavalry or correctly yeomanry(TF Cavalry) and are a stand alone unit. 

 

 

The Prince of Wales’s Own (West Yorkshire Regiment)

Are Infantry with regular and TF units. 

 

The way the unit is titled is important for the British Army and units can be told apart. 

[Old Owl]

Hi,

 

There are some service papers on Ancestry for John William Ward born St Mary's, Scarborough circa 1890.  He enlisted at Hull in Sept 1914 into the Royal Field Artillery with the service number 26712, rank Driver.  Served in France 1916 and also Salonica 1918.

 

He was married pre war and had four children:  Frederick, Eleanor, Harry and Marian.

 

Could this be him?

 

Robert

[Scalyback]

19 minutes ago, Old Owl said:

Hi,

 

There are some service papers on Ancestry for John William Ward born St Mary's, Scarborough circa 1890.  He enlisted at Hull in Sept 1914 into the Royal Field Artillery with the service number 26712, rank Driver.  Served in France 1916 and also Salonica 1918.

 

He was married pre war and had four children:  Frederick, Eleanor, Harry and Marian.

 

Could this be him?

 

Robert

 

I think the OP is sure her man ended up in the MGC(a small fit with farrier training) more where he started in the Hussars or Infantry in the transport by the looks of it. 

[Mespot18thDiv]

14 hours ago, Old Owl said:

Hi,

 

There are some service papers on Ancestry for John William Ward born St Mary's, Scarborough circa 1890.  He enlisted at Hull in Sept 1914 into the Royal Field Artillery with the service number 26712, rank Driver.  Served in France 1916 and also Salonica 1918.

 

He was married pre war and had four children:  Frederick, Eleanor, Harry and Marian.

 

Could this be him?

 

Robert

 

14 hours ago, Scalyback said:

 

I think the OP is sure her man ended up in the MGC(a small fit with farrier training) more where he started in the Hussars or Infantry in the transport by the looks of it. 

Hello.  You are right Scalyback.  I have come across this man before - not him.  JWW was a bachelor until he married a war widow in 1926.  His MIC is hard to find but it is there - has his long term family address on the bottom - The Forge, in the hamlet of Stainton Dale, north of Scarborough.

MIC also says he started off in the KRRC 8377, but this has recently been shown to be unstable - number belonged to a young man who died in France, who was also a porter for the North Eastern Railway - Leeds.  The KRRC didn't have a TF unit, so it was always a bit suspect ie 'things didn't fit'.

Hence, I am back on the TF trail.

[Mespot18thDiv]

I have just been looking back through some old papers - this trawl  has been going on some years, off and on.

 

I am surprised to find that my Grandad did actually work on York Station  (not just filling in gaps).  To meet the demands of the NER time-table, it is very likely that he would have lived in a NER approved lodging house in York. 

 

Presumably this would make him eligible to join a York-based Territorial Force, which opens up the options.

[Mespot18thDiv]

I've also just read that there were 32,000 Territorials in the 13th Western Division, 10,000 Indians. Says, fighting principally India, but I know they were also the only British formation in Mesopotamia.  

[kenf48]

Before too many hares are set running this soldier has been extensively researched in two previous threads. There is no evidence he served in the TF.

 

and 

 

Ken

[Mespot18thDiv]

OP Calling.

Firstly, thank you kindly to contributors.

Hares! Good choice, but my personal gate will be wire-netting free.

Why?  Bird's Eye View

1)   Allowance for 'human error' re the  mammoth, time pressured task of compiling the records, hence the 9' 7" Lieut I have viewed.

2)   Observance of the pre-war powers to influence ie the 'window on the world' - the local community.

 

… Must hop.