The reporting of Casualties

[Perth Digger]

There are a number of threads on the Forum where the question of Other Ranks' next of kin receiving telegrams when the soldier became a casualty is mentioned. There does not seem to be a consensus on whether this always happened, or whether, at times, letters rather than telegrams were received as the first indication of becoming a casualty. In order to clarify this issue, could anyone who has information on individual cases of casualties give details on this thread, please? Date of telegram or letter would be helpful, as well as type of casualty and battalion/regiment. The last is important as there were different casualty Sections/Record Offices for Regulars/Service battalions and TF formations (at least until some point in 1917).

 

To get the ball rolling, here are some points of relevance.

 

In 1907 a War Office Committee on the Notification of Casualties recommended that, in peacetime, next of kin of casualties amongst ORs should be informed by telegram (as officers' next of kin already were). This does not appear to have been included in the revised Field Service Regulations, Part 2, of 1909/1913. The recommendation was based on the length of time letters took to arrive from India.

 

Reporting of casualties from 1914 came through a number of Sections. In the War Office, MS 2 Cas. informed the NOK of ORs, MS 3 Cas informed the NOK of officers. TF units came under a different system, until sometime in 1917. Because the addresses of TF NOK were kept in TF Record Offices, there was a Section called MS 3 Cas TF for TF officers, which liaised with the TF Record Offices. I presume there was a similar system for ORs TF. MS 3 Cas TF was situated in a different building to MS 3 Cas from 1915 until 1917.

 

NOK of officers were always informed by telegram. It appears that NOK of some ORs were also, but others were not. I do not know why this discrepancy occurred.

 

Mike

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Mike

Notification of my grandfather's wound was received by this FSPC. I have seen telegrams in Service Records only when the wound was life threatening. He was not TF.

Brian

Edited 6 January , 2019 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Perth Digger]

HI Brian

Thanks. Would this have been the first that NOK knew of his wounding, do you know? The postmark is 5 September 1916. Do you know when he was wounded? 

 

Thanks again.

 

Mike

[brianmorris547]

Mike

I do not know if there was an earlier telegram.

He was 83123 John Morris who enlisted into the County Palatine RE in Bolton in March 1915. He did not go to France in November 1915 with 30 Div RE and I think found his way to No 4 General Base Depot at Rouen in early 1916 before being sent to a Unit as a reinforcement. From my research I am pretty sure that he was wounded serving with 20 Div RE at Guillemont on 03 or 04/09/1916. He is named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916 under RE wounded and all of the other wounded RE from 20 Div on those dates that I have been able to identify are also named in the same list.

I do not think that he wrote the postcard. Daisy St is spelt wrong and so is his name in the signature. Assuming it is his signature on the 1911 Census it is different from that too.

Brian

[mandy hall]

My great grandparents were informed by telegram that, my great uncle had died.  His service record survives and includes 2 telegrams they received in close succession. One to say he was dangerously ill and the next to say he had died.  Harry Francis Hall served with 7th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment, a Service Battalion.  There are a couple of other telegrams that might interest you.

Mandy

Service record links for ancestry or find my past

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/30836_147563-00779?pid=866877&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1219%26h%3D866877%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Drmu2%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=rmu2&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=30836_147563-00809

 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007401383%2f00788&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7401383%2f33%2f787

 

 

[Perth Digger]

Brian

From what you've said here I'd hazard a guess that the postcard arrived first, soon after he was wounded (the postal service was exceptionally good). MS 2 Cas was responsible for informing NOK and for passing on casualty lists from France to the newspapers. The Times did not appear to hold on to these lists for long before publication, so I would surmise that the original list did not get to the War Office before John's postcard got to Daisy St. I may be wrong, but John's family probably did not get official confirmation of his wounding until October.

 

Mike

[Perth Digger]

Thanks for the telegrams and for the link, Mandy. I see that the telegrams came from No.2 Infantry Record Office in Hounslow, which was responsible for the southern regiments outside London, I believe. I notice, too, that permission for NOK to visit was not given. Maybe the Infantry Record Offices were responsible for informing the NOK of ORs becoming casualties, not MS 2 Cas. But it shows that telegrams were sent about ORs.

 

Mike

 

 

[brianmorris547]

On 06/01/2019 at 13:36, Perth Digger said:

Thanks for the telegrams and for the link, Mandy. I see that the telegrams came from No.2 Infantry Record Office in Hounslow, which was responsible for the southern regiments outside London, I believe. I notice, too, that permission for NOK to visit was not given. Maybe the Infantry Record Offices were responsible for informing the NOK of ORs becoming casualties, not MS 2 Cas. But it shows that telegrams were sent about ORs.

 

Mike

 

 

Mike

An example is to be found in the service record of Harry Chisnall 426508 RE. He was reported seriously ill by telegram in October 1916 and was visited at the British Red Cross Hospital. He was serving with 1/1 West Lancs Field Co (TF) of 55 Div (later 419 FC). He was from St Helens. The WD names a Chisnall on 17/03/1916 without any initial or number but does not name names after August.

Brian

[Don Regiano]

On 06/01/2019 at 09:03, brianmorris547 said:

Mike

I do not know if there was an earlier telegram.

He was 83123 John Morris who enlisted into the County Palatine RE in Bolton in March 1915. He did not go to France in November 1915 with 30 Div RE and I think found his way to No 4 General Base Depot at Rouen in early 1916 before being sent to a Unit as a reinforcement. From my research I am pretty sure that he was wounded serving with 20 Div RE at Guillemont on 03 or 04/09/1916. He is named in the Times OCL 11/10/1916 under RE wounded and all of the other wounded RE from 20 Div on those dates that I have been able to identify are also named in the same list.

I do not think that he wrote the postcard. Daisy St is spelt wrong and so is his name in the signature. Assuming it is his signature on the 1911 Census it is different from that too.

Brian

 

I don't want to hijack the thread Brian but just a quick question - do you have any info as to where they were around Guillemont at that time?  Just being nosey so maybe I can take a look when I next pass through there (no doubt several times) next month.

 

Reg

[brianmorris547]

Reg

I was last there in May 2016 armed with IGN 1:25 000 map 2408 E Bray - sur - Somme. I was trying to follow in the footsteps of 96 FC. That FC had most of the 20 Div RE casualties on 03/09/1916 because they went over with the Infantry rather than move up to consolidate after the objectives had been taken.

I found a Narrative of the Operations 03 to 05/09/1916 in the WD of 20 Div HQ General Staff (WO 95/2095) and a report on the Capture of Guillemont in the WD of the Commander RE 20 Div (WO 95/2014). There were maps in the WD of the CRE showing that 83 FC were to the west of Trones Wood, 84 FC were on the western edge of Bernafay Wood and 96 FC were in Arrow Head Copse. The map shows numbers 1 to 8 in circles.

I found a report by Major Story, OC 96 FC in the WD of 59 Infantry Brigade (WO 95/2112/2). It is not in the WD of the CRE. The objectives of 96 FC and the Pioneers were to construct eight strong points which I took to be the eight numbered circles. Number 8 as you can see from the map is at the crossroads east of Guillemont where you will now find the Memorial to 20 Division. I took a picture but no longer have it, I think I posted it on the thread about Divisional memorials.

Brian

EDIT: Found the thread but I did not post it. Can be seen on google.

Edited 23 January , 2019 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Perth Digger]

Thanks, Brian.

 

Mike