Life Guards rank

[jay dubaya]

Could a kind soul confirm (or not) that the Life Guards rank of Corporal of Horse wore 3 chevrons surmounted by a crown and what rank the same configuration would denote in other regiments?

 

cheers, Jon

[DavidOwen]

A search suggests you are correct Jon and it is equivalent to Sergeant elsewhere https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Corporal_of_Horse.html

[DavidOwen]

Another link here https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/household-cavalry-ranks.9888/

Need to distinguish between cloth and brass crown apparently.

Edited 3 January , 2019 by DavidOwen

[FROGSMILE]

As David has confirmed Corporal of Horse was/is still the equivalent of a Sergeant in the infantry, etc.

 

Much later, Lance Corporal of Horse was created in order to enable its holders to have the same rights of Corporals’ Mess (Sergeants’ Mess elsewhere) membership as Lance Sergeants of Foot Guards.

Edited 3 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Thank you fellas, I should know but I don’t and I’m away from home but could the rank be confused with Staff Sgt and Sgt Major - were these ranks in the LG?

Does any photographic evidence exist of this rank and also the S/T configuration of 2/LG.

 

[FROGSMILE]

58 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Thank you fellas, I should know but I don’t and I’m away from home but could the rank be confused with Staff Sgt and Sgt Major - were these ranks in the LG?

Does any photographic evidence exist of this rank and also the S/T configuration of 2/LG.

 

 

They were (are still) Staff Corporal and Corporal Major, respectively.  The shoulder title was a separate 2 above the letters LG, a long-standing device within the regiment that was even used as a pro tem cap badge on the pre-war field service cap.  It was certainly in use in 1914 and photographed by Christina Bloom.

 

Edited 3 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

The emphasis is on the Sgt here, for instance, could an infantry Captain confuse the rank as being a Sgt Major or a Staff Sgt? It’s my understanding that the LG didn’t have Sgts but would other units know this?

Edited 3 January , 2019 by jay dubaya

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

The emphasis is on the Sgt here, for instance, could an infantry Captain confuse the rank as being a Sgt Major or a Staff Sgt? It’s my understanding that the LG didn’t have Sgts but would other units know this?

 

Yes, an ill informed officer, perhaps a pre-war civilian with a hostilities only commission could be confused by Life Guards ranking in a way that a pre-war regular officer trained at RMC Sandhurst probably would not.  Crowns had become a ‘cavalry arm badge’ (i.e. having nothing to do with rank) within the LG and RHG (as it also had in some line cavalry regiments too), and this was not well understood by those outside the regiments themselves or outside the orbit of pre-war Household duties in London and Windsor.  In essence the rank titles simply exchanged the term ‘sergeant’ (with its Latin origins as ‘servant’) for ‘corporal’, because the original regiments had comprised only gentlemen, largely from landed families with a ‘vested interest’ in the crown and a status quo.  This tradition and preeminence was guarded jealousy via these arcane minutiae, even though the men now came largely from the working classes.  

 

This must seem very odd to the uninitiated now, but inconsistent badges of rank had been rife in the British Army prior to 1881, with e.g. RA and RE Sergeants both, having a crown above three stripes as part of their badge of rank, unlike the infantry.  

 

Even after 1881 reforms, it was not just the Household Troops that stubbornly retained odd badges of rank and titles, some parts of the line cavalry did too, and whereas some Corps’/Regiments’ personnel with a single stripe were titled Lance Corporal, others were titled Second Corporal, and whereas the latter was a substantive (pension earning) position, the former was not.  

 

In short, it was really down to the officers that came in contact with these NCOs and WOs to take the trouble to familiarise themselves with the regimental idiosyncrasies concerned.  In the sum total of things it seems not to have mattered that much (there were other clues to individual status beyond stripes and crowns) and everyone muddled through.

Edited 3 January , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Thanks for that Frogsmile, your first sentence is what I was looking for, my questions pertain to a soldier who may have slipped through the identification process because of his rank badges, I believe he now lies in the grave of a UBS 2nd LG when he could actually have a named headstone.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Thanks for that Frogsmile, your first sentence is what I was looking for, my questions pertain to a soldier who may have slipped through the identification process because of his rank badges, I believe he now lies in the grave of a UBS 2nd LG when he could actually have a named headstone.

 

I see.  The context of your opening question is clear now.  Apologies if the explanation was longer than you needed.  Hopefully it might be of use to others with an interest in such matters.

[jay dubaya]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 Apologies if the explanation was longer than you needed.  Hopefully it might be of use to others with an interest in such matters.

 

None needed - why draw a line when you can paint a picture

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

 

None needed - why draw a line when you can paint a picture

 

Roger that