Hampshire Regiment?

[John Clucas]

Hi, I would be grateful if someone could help. My great grandfather Israel Ratcliffe served in WW1. Records show he was in the Hampshire Regiment 37226, then in the Labour Company 108350. 

For the first time, I have just obtained a photo of him - attached. I'm now confused however his cap badge doesn't match either the Hampshire Regiment or the Labour Company. Does anyone have any idea what the badge could be? Sorry it's blurry, but its all I have. Thanks in advance.

 

Kind regards 

 

John Clucas 

[Andrew Upton]

Royal Artillery:

 

[mancpal]

Agreed

[MaxD]

There are medal records for Israel Ratcliffe with the numbers you quote.  A couple of things to check:

 

The medal records don't, as is usual, have any personal information on them so have you other evidence to show your Israel is the man with those medal records, his service record does not seem to have survived.  (That said, his name is pretty distinctive, I find only one definite other - in the Bedfords kia in 1916).

 

How confident are you that the (definite)  Royal Artilleryman in the photo is your Israel?.

 

Could he possibly have served in the RA before going abroad (which would not show on a medal record)?

 

Max

Edited 2 January , 2019 by MaxD
added definite

[John Clucas]

Many thanks Andrew, Mancpal and MaxD.

 

MaxD, your interesting comments prompted discussion in my family. Basically, we're not 100% certain that it's Israel Ratcliffe in the photo (he died in the 1920s), but he was 36 when he joined up in 1914 (which does look the right age for the chap in the photo). Also, we aren't aware of any other family members who it could be. It was in the family photos box, but because of the badge issue, but that everything else suggests it's him, I'm now say 95% sure.

 

Could I query, with your/others experience, could it be a reasonable assumption that it is him and that he joined the Royal Artillery, then transferred to the Hampshire Regiment during the conflict? If this type of thing that used to happen, - and therefore (probably) did happen to him? If so then this is 'new' information for the family!

 

From the very limited info I have managed to obtain, I believe he eventually ended up in the 4th Infantry Labour Company in France, but I have no idea on where he was earlier on/middle of the war. 

[jay dubaya]

John, do you have documentation or medals that confirm his service with the Hampshire’s and LC, where did he come from and do you know how he died?

 

[ss002d6252]

The Hampshire's number dates from around mid-late Feb 1917 so he had to have had service with someone else if he had enlisted in 1914 - how do you know he enlisted in 1914 ?

 

Craig

Edited 3 January , 2019 by ss002d6252

[MaxD]

Not impossible but unprovable without his service record.  No branch of the RA appears on his medal records (assuming they are his), and I agree with Craig, if he joined in 1914 he had service prior to going overseas so although persuasive I wouldn't  state it previous RA service as a fact.

 

His second (Labour Corps) number checks out as being in the block allocated to (correct title) 4th Infantry Labour Company Hampshire Regiment which became 181 Labour Company of the Labour Corps.(source No Labour No Battle).

 

Max

 

 

 

Edited 3 January , 2019 by MaxD
clarification

[George Rayner]

Do you have birth date for Israel?

[John Clucas]

48 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

John, do you have documentation or medals that confirm his service with the Hampshire’s and LC, where did he come from and do you know how he died?

 

Hi Jay Dubaya. I have his medals, which are inscribed I Ratcliffe Hampshire Regiment 37226. He was from Wigan, Lancashire. Not sure how he died, in c1925 I think? John

 

8 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Do you have birth date for Israel?

Just a year at the moment - 1878

[George Rayner]

...and a place?

[John Clucas]

Just now, George Rayner said:

...and a place?

Wigan, Lancashire 

[George Rayner]

Wife Elizabeth, daughter Lily?

[John Clucas]

46 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The Hampshire's number dates from around mid-late Feb 1917 so he had to have had service with someone else if he had enlisted in 1914 - how do you know he enlisted in 1914 ?

 

Craig

Hi Craig. I understood that the 108350 number correlated with Feb 1917 transfer to Labour Corps, but that his original.37226 Hampshire number showed he joined in 1914. Is that not correct?

Just now, George Rayner said:

Wife Elizabeth, daughter Lily?

Yes!

[ss002d6252]

Just now, John Clucas said:

Hi Craig. I understood that the 108350 number correlated with Feb 1917 transfer to Labour Corps, but that his original.37226 Hampshire number showed he joined in 1914. Is that not correct?

The Hampshire number was allocated only in about Feb 1917 - a 1914 service number would, as a rough guide, usually be in the 10XXX to 12XXX range for most infantry regiments. The RA would have their own sequence, probably a 5 or 6 digit number unless he was a territorial in which case a 4 digit number would be typical. Other corps would use different sequences.

 

It means that if he served from 1914 then he had to have been under a different service number that used in the Hampshires, presumably a Royal Artillery number to tie in with the uniform.

It was common for men to be moved around so I'd suggest there's a possibility that he enlisted in the RA, was combed out for infantry service and then was found unfit so was passed through the Hampshires and in to the Labour Corps.

 

Craig

[John Clucas]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The Hampshire number was allocated only in about Feb 1917 - a 1914 service number would, as a rough guide, usually be in the 10XXX to 12XXX range for most infantry regiments. The RA would have their own sequence, probably a 5 or 6 digit number unless he was a territorial in which case a 4 digit number would be typical. Other corps would use different sequences.

 

It means that if he served from 1914 then he had to have been under a different service number that used in the Hampshires, presumably a Royal Artillery number to tie in with the uniform.

It was common for men to be moved around so I'd suggest there's a possibility that he enlisted in the RA, was combed out for infantry service and then was found unfit so was passed through the Hampshires and in to the Labour Corps.

 

Craig

Craig, that's really helpful - many thanks.

[John Clucas]

7 minutes ago, John Clucas said:

Craig, that's really helpful - many thanks.

Hi Craig. Can I double check something please? I have just checked some previous notes, and someone had previously verbally told me that Hampshire 37226 would have been enlisted November/December 1915. Presumably this was incorrect?

[George Rayner]

Hi 

I was hoping that census 1911 would give us something to follow but they don't appear in the Ancestry set of 1911 even though I know they are at 122 St. George's Street Wigan. Can't find anything else about him/them extra either. Will continue to follow other thoughts though.

George

[John Clucas]

2 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Hi 

I was hoping that census 1911 would give us something to follow but they don't appear in the Ancestry set of 1911 even though I know they are at 122 St. George's Street Wigan. Can't find anything else about him/them extra either. Will continue to follow other thoughts though.

George

Thanks George 

[ss002d6252]

21 minutes ago, John Clucas said:

Hi Craig. Can I double check something please? I have just checked some previous notes, and someone had previously verbally told me that Hampshire 37226 would have been enlisted November/December 1915. Presumably this was incorrect?

Nov/Dec 1915 would tie in with a Derby Scheme man who volunteered then under that scheme but was not called up until later.

 

#37253 Hampshire was allocated 24 Feb 1917 and later renumbered #107215 Labour Corps

 

Looking again at some records it looks like men were being transferred in  from elsewhere and allocated straight to the Hampshires Labour Company.

 

Craig

Edited 3 January , 2019 by ss002d6252

[kenf48]

There is evidence in the records that men from the Royal Artillery and other home service units were posted  to the 4th Infantry Labour Company Hampshire Regiment on or around the date cited by Craig.

e.g 37060/108308 Macdonald posted 5 March 1917 to France 11 March.  He did enlist 1914 but had previously served overseas wth the RGA.  

The surviving record of 37221 is a bit more obscure but also previously RGA

Mossop 10831 called up 1916 posted RGA then to Hants on 6 March as above

Mycock 37146/108301 RGA Salonika evacuated to U.K. and again posted to the 4th Hampshire Infantry Labour Company 6 March.

 

As previously noted, persuasive but not definitive.  Browsing the Medal Rolls also identifies RGA men.

 

Ken

Edited 4 January , 2019 by kenf48

[MaxD]

Having started the "near numbers" combing that Ken and Crag have done so well and who have rather more quickly than I ferreted out some more circumstantial clues, I'd now say the accumulated clues make the argument for previous service more persuasive and is likely to be the best one could hope for in reconstructing your man's service.

 

Max

[John Clucas]

9 hours ago, MaxD said:

Having started the "near numbers" combing that Ken and Crag have done so well and who have rather more quickly than I ferreted out some more circumstantial clues, I'd now say the accumulated clues make the argument for previous service more persuasive and is likely to be the best one could hope for in reconstructing your man's service.

 

Max

Many thanks Max