The genesis of the "woolly pully"?

[Keith_history_buff]

During WW1, jerseys with patches on the shoulders, and plain jerseys, were being worn by the Egyptian Army. Similar garments were being worn by some African units too. 

Does anyone know how this developed into the woolly pully?

 

IWM Q 15597
January 1917, buglers of the Nigeria Regiment

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205087895

 

IWM Catalogue number Q 92407

2nd Battalion, King's African Rifles

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205335801

 

Sudanese troops at the Nile in 1917
https://www.firstworldwar.com/photos/graphics/gw_niletroops_01.jpg

 

Sergeant of the 9th Sudanese Battalion
(Sourced from The Wonder Book of Soldiers af Harry Golding (ed.), Ward, Lock & Co., London, c. 1940 via an article by Per Finsted.)
 

East Africa Police, date unknown
 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Some later images for comparative purposes:

Link to image of woolly pully, perhaps dating to the 1970s or thereabouts
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30110456

WW2 woolly pully, also in the IWM collection
 

[Keith_history_buff]

Image sourced from BBC website, believed to be taken 1943-4 in the Aegean

The best images of the WW2 woolly pully are probably in the 1955 film "The Cockleshell Heroes"

[MBrockway]

Much loved by the Commandos in WW2 - see here for some detail on the various patterns:

http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/15/5076.page#19085

 

I still wear mine from the 1970s!  Bit frayed round the cuffs now, but still as warm and comfy as ever.  Shirt, Hairy, however only gets worn as gardening/building scruff kit

 

 

Edited 30 December , 2018 by MBrockway

[Scalyback]

I'm sure I have seen trench pictures with the men wearing woolly jumpers. Not a big leap for a man to add a patch on the wear points. 

Unofficial dress to make a squaddie comfy is normally ahead of the curve. Buffalo shirts not issued until 2010(ish) I was wearing one as a snot cadet in 95! 

[Scalyback]

The cardigan he is wearing. Very close.

[Keith_history_buff]

21 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Much loved by the Commandos in WW2 - see here for some detail on the various patterns:

http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/15/5076.page#19085

 

I still wear mine from the 1970s!  Bit frayed round the cuffs now, but still as warm and comfy as ever.  Shirt, Hairy, however only gets worn as gardening/building scruff kit

 

 

 

Thanks for the link, very interesting! So, it was not until the third pattern that the patches on the shoulder were added.

I had recently seen an image on a different site, and was surprised to see the drawstring around the neck. Given that it was for mountain warfare, it now makes more sense.

[Keith_history_buff]

There's a pic of a neat looking cardie on this thread - certainly more presentable than the example that Albert Steptoe wore!
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/222161-the-issued-cardigan/?tab=comments#comment-2671191

It's a different time period, but there's an interesting image of a section of the East Surreys on that wikipedia page, taken 16 December 1943. They are wearing pullovers and field service caps, and look so different to the perceived image of the Tommy. The pullover in that instance is preferred as an alternative to the battledress blouse.

[keithmroberts]

Can we avoid turning this into a Skindles thread please.

 

Keith

[Keith_history_buff]

I came across a colourised version of an IWM photo, on a webpage mentioning an exhibition at the NAM.

The soldier does not appear to be wearing a tunic, but either a pullover or cardigan.


Original black & white image here, IWM catalogue reference Q 1201
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205191405

NAM colourisation
https://www.nam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2021-06/west-indian-soldier-colorised_slice.jpg
 

[FROGSMILE]

Did you pick up on the fact that the earliest issue woollen pullovers (as opposed to cardigans) were the ‘Gansey’, or Guernsey style, of Channel Islands fame?  They were issued to mounted infantry during the winters of the second half of the latter Boer War.  I’ve often wondered which company had the first contract for them.  The mind boggles that they were issued to the King’s African Rifles and it’s predecessors too.  As a boy soldier, WW2 dated drab-coloured examples were issued to my unit specifically for so-called ‘adventure training’ (military version of ‘outward bound’) as a convenient way to use up old stocks.  

All these gansey types were cut in a very simple T-shape with a ‘boat neck’, inner reinforcement along the shoulder seam and knitted triangles under the armpits and had to be sized upwards, as unlike the woolly pully there was no ribbing in the knit.  They were cut and sewn and so worn relatively loosely.  My guess is that the supply came from Scotland because for generations the town of Kilmarnock had relied upon government contracts to maintain its woollen trade.  The wool was very coarse indeed and from the Shetland islands.

Edited 18 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[4thGordons]

This pic I have of what I think is an early contingent of Canadian Scots on Salisbury Plain shows a range of cardigans and sweaters that might be of interest.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes that type of cardigan in your photo was quite common and again, issued as early as the 2nd Boer War.  I have a superb, high resolution photo of two soldiers wearing them in SA, along with cap comforters (and smoking pipes), but unfortunately I cannot find it.  Here is a photo of the lighter weight version issued as part of the SD layering system, worn by a limbless convalescent.

@Keith_history_buff I’m not sure if you’ve seen the additions to this thread that you started.

 

 

Edited 18 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

Thanks for the three additional photos, that have latterly appeared. It's interesting to see those with West African Frontier Force, but the precursor to the woolly pully does not seem to have been worn on the Western Front. The soldier from the West India Regiment does look like he has a 'reinforcement along the shoulder seam' albeit externally, and I have never seen that on a WW1 photo of a soldier wearing a pullover or similar woollen garment.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Thanks for the three additional photos, that have latterly appeared. It's interesting to see those with West African Frontier Force, but the precursor to the woolly pully does not seem to have been worn on the Western Front. The soldier from the West India Regiment does look like he has a 'reinforcement along the shoulder seam' albeit externally, and I have never seen that on a WW1 photo of a soldier wearing a pullover or similar woollen garment.

I’m sorry Keith I should have made it clear that, as with the submariner jumper of later RN issue, the reinforcement along the shoulder seam was a strip of cotton twill on the inside of the seam (I described it as “inner reinforcement” and thought that was a sufficient description).  This was very common with cut and sewn knitted woollen garments as it strengthened the area under strain from repeated pulling over the head.  
The ribbed commando sweater (later woolly pully) was very different in that regard.  Such knitted ribbing was common on the later woollen garments, but not on those issued from the 2nd Boer War through to WW1, which were cut and sewn types, as seen in the images I posted. 

Edited 19 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[healdav]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m sorry Keith I should have made it clear that, as with the submariner jumper of later RN issue, the reinforcement along the shoulder seam was a strip of cotton twill on the inside of the seam (I described it as “inner reinforcement” and thought that was a sufficient description).  This was very common with cut and sewn knitted woollen garments as it strengthened the area under strain from repeated pulling over the head.  
The ribbed commando sweater (later woolly pully) was very different in that regard.  Such knitted ribbing was common on the later woollen garments, but not on those issued from the 2nd Boer War through to WW1, which were cut and sewn types, as seen in the images I posted. 

Bumpy Jumpeys for the Wrens werre the same.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, healdav said:

Bumpy Jumpeys for the Wrens werre the same.

I thought they were Lumpy Jumpy’s…

[Keith_history_buff]

That comment was made before, and was removed by the moderators, to keep this a serious topic and to avoid turning into a skindles-type thread.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

That comment was made before, and was removed by the moderators, to keep this a serious topic and to avoid turning into a skindles-type thread.

I think I’ve contributed to the seriousness of your thread Keith, as is my default mode anyway.  Are you touting for a job? 

[Keith_history_buff]

There was a trend at the time for persons to try and add comments to threads, with a view to demonstrate they were the greatest wit since Oscar Wilde. The one key perpetrator I am thinking of has not been on here in quite a while. Not only does it detract from the purpose of what a given thread is trying to explore, but it implies that those in an inner clique can do as they please.
 
The moderation was needed that time - I'd see WW2 as having a greater possibility to deviate for this thread, rather than remaining in canon with the original post. 

[Michelle Young]

Thread locked at request of OP