1/6th King's Liverpool Rifles - L/Cpl J. S. P. Woodward 242881

[Woodward]

Hi there

 

Over the last year or two, I’ve been doing research into my Grandfather’s and his brothers war records.

 

My Grandfather served with the 1/6^th King’s Liverpool Rifles.

 

I’ve been very fortunate to have found a lot of surviving information on my Grandfather, including parts of his Service Record, photographs, his Paybook, some letters & a poem he wrote about his experience of the War.

 

This has meant that I’ve been able to put together a reasonably detailed picture of his wartime record..

 

However, there are two sources that I’ve not yet had chance to look at fully:

 

·         1/6^th King’s Casualty Book

·         Military Medal Citations

 

I was wondering whether anyone knows if there is a digital copy of the 1/6^th King’s Casualty Book available online?

 

I know that unfortunately not many Military Medal Citations have survived but I did find a couple at the Liverpool Archives. Does anyone know of any other archives around the country that might house surviving Military Medal Citations for the Liverpool Rifles?

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

Many thanks!

Edited 30 December , 2018 by Woodward

[Ken Lees]

Welcome to the Forum.

 

What is your grandfather's name? And his service number(s)?

[Woodward]

Thanks for the welcome Ken.

His name was Joseph Stanley Pemberton Woodward but he enlisted as Stanley Woodward - service number was originally 7022 & later 242881.

 

Many thanks

[Langdon]

 

Ancestry has his Silver War Badge record - enlisted 8th December 1915, discharged due to sickness on 13th February 1919 aged 23 (rank L/Cpl), having served overseas. Silver War Badge #B167856.

 

Mike

[daggers]

That casualty book may be in the archives at the Merseyside Maritime Museum which has been closed for some time.  Try their web site for details of reopening.

D

[Mark1959]

One question 

What makes you believe that such a document as the 1/6 KLR Casualty Book actually exists? Never heard of such a thing.

[Mark1959]

According to his docs he was awarded MM on 28/10/17. This was published in the London Gazette (no citation) on 10/1/18. 

The War Diary of 1/6th KLR says on 1/11/17 "Gallantry Cards" were handed out for 20/9/17. The supposition must be it was for his actions on that date. This appears to be part of the Battle of the Menin Road Ridge. 1/6 KLR attacked in the area around Hill 35 and Gravenstafel on 20/9/17.

The best chance to find the exact reason for the MM are newspaper reports, books on the subject, etc. 

I would recommend you read the war diary of 1/6 KLR. available on ancestry or from the National Archives. The report on 20/9/17 is pretty tough reading

Of the 21 Officer and 510 men who went over the top there were the following casualties

Killed 4 officers and 25 men - it is noted all of the men of  Number 1 Platoon, A company died

Missing 1 officer 43 men

Wounded 7 officers 149 men

So of the 531 at the start 229 were casualties

Edited 30 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[ForeignGong]

FMP has a Admission and Discharge book for 18 General (12 USA Base ) Hospital that mentions Joseph Woodward 242881, "C" Coy, 1/6th K.L'Pool T.F. Age 21, 1 year service with 7 months in field, with Contusion R Hand M Buried??? 1195, Transferred to No 6 CD??? 10.8.17, 9 days treatment.

[Mark1959]

He was also a Red Cross Volunteer in 1916

https://vad.redcross.org.uk/Card?fname=john&sname=woodward&id=232901&last=true

Scroll down the page to see a relevant document

[daggers]

1 hour ago, Mark1959 said:

One question 

What makes you believe that such a document as the 1/6 KLR Casualty Book actually exists? Never heard of such a thing.

Forum member IRC Kevin has quoted from it several times.

D

[Woodward]

Thanks for all the information folks, I will have a look at the Maritime Museum and see if there is anything about when it will reopen.

 

Really do appreciate the assistance.

Edited 30 December , 2018 by Woodward

[Woodward]

8 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

According to his docs he was awarded MM on 28/10/17. This was published in the London Gazette (no citation) on 10/1/18. 

The War Diary of 1/6th KLR says on 1/11/17 "Gallantry Cards" were handed out for 20/9/17. The supposition must be it was for his actions on that date. This appears to be part of the Battle of the Menin Road Ridge. 1/6 KLR attacked in the area around Hill 35 and Gravenstafel on 20/9/17.

The best chance to find the exact reason for the MM are newspaper reports, books on the subject, etc. 

I would recommend you read the war diary of 1/6 KLR. available on ancestry or from the National Archives. The report on 20/9/17 is pretty tough reading

Of the 21 Officer and 510 men who went over the top there were the following casualties

Killed 4 officers and 25 men - it is noted all of the men of  Number 1 Platoon, A company died

Missing 1 officer 43 men

Wounded 7 officers 149 men

So of the 531 at the start 229 were casualties

Thanks for this Mark, much appreciated.

In regards to the Casualty Book, the Liverpool Museum website lists three volumes below:


I don't know of many other Casualty Books for other Battalions that have survived, so it's quite remarkable that these three volumes still exist.

[Mark1959]

Sorry for my cynicism. I am sure members of this forum will be very interested to know what these volumes contain. Make sure you report back. Glad to help and best of luck.

[IRC Kevin]

There you go, his Casualties Book entries. He gets a couple of mentions in my forthcoming book 'The Liverpool Rifles'- was supposed to have been out in September, but unfortunately not now hitting the shelves till May. (No idea why it'd been delayed as Fonthill completed all work for the printers back in November.)

 

Although I know he was 'C' Company, I don't know which platoon. If any of his letters mention other men, NCOs or platoon-leader for September 1917, or thereabouts, I have all the platoon reports for the action, written for forwarding to the Divisional-Commander, so may be able to identify some of the circumstances regarding his MM. Sadly, his citation is not among those surviving in Jeudwine's papers.

Edited 30 December , 2018 by IRC Kevin

[Mark1959]

Kevin - fascinating stuff. So do you also believe MM was for 20/9/17?

[IRC Kevin]

9 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

Kevin - fascinating stuff. So do you also believe MM was for 20/9/17?

 

I'll have a look at Divisional A&Q records when I get back from the deadly Asda shopping trip this morning and let you know.

[IRC Kevin]

Mark,

The A&Q document would suggest his award was for the 20th (or thereabouts) as it's included with others known to be for the attack. There is a slight possibility that he was recommended by another battalion- 1/9th KLR or even the Loyals, as the attackers became considerably mingled, though even if this was the case his citation should have been filed with those of the 1/6th.. A considerable percentage of the award citations for 55 Division are preserved in Jeudwine's papers in Liverpool Archives. Although his is not among those of the 1/6th (a considerably lower proportion of theirs survive compared to the two KORL battalions- whether this is due to pilfering over the years, misfiling, or just coincidence, is anybody's guess), there is an outside chance that it has been misfiled or mixed up with another battalion's since the archive was deposited there- there are ten from the 1/9th filed in with the 1/6th. It would probably take 4-5 days at Liverpool Archives to go through these files as researchers are limited to 10 folders per day. I can say with certainty that it's not filed with those of the 1/6th KLR, 1/4th KORL or 1/5th KORL, as I have photographed those in entirety. If you'd like to PM me your e-mail address, I'll send you a pdf extract of the Menin Road Ridge chapter from the forthcoming book.

regards,

Kevin

[Woodward]

20 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

Sorry for my cynicism. I am sure members of this forum will be very interested to know what these volumes contain. Make sure you report back. Glad to help and best of luck.

 

Thanks Mark. 

 

To be fair, I was only vaguely aware of the volumes for a couple of years and it's only recently that I realised how useful they could be to First World War research.

Sadly like the Service Records, not many have survived & I think the 1/6th is the only surviving one of all the Liverpool Battalions, unless any have survived as part of a private collection but it's pretty unlikely.The exception to some degree being the 2/6th Liverpool Battalion, as I suspect the Casualty Book was used to complete a roll of all Warrant Officers, NCOs and men in the 'The History of the 2/6th Liverpool Rifles' by Capt C.E Wurtzburg and includes joining dates the Battalion, awards, date of leaving & cause.

I've been keeping an eye out over the centenary period, in case anymore information came to light as my Grandfather had three other brothers who were all killed in 1918 & two of whom also served  in Liverpool Battalions. 
 

18 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

Kevin - fascinating stuff. So do you also believe MM was for 20/9/17?

 

We know that he earned it on the 20th September 1917 during the fighting around Hill 35 and that he would have been a Battalion Stretcher Bearer at the time.

Unfortunately there are two possible accounts as to how he was awarded the MM and the more detailed of the two are from a source that is to put it lightly, prone to exaggeration and fantasy.

As Kevin mentions, it might be a long shot but the citation could have gotten mixed up with those of another Battalion, so maybe a trip back to the Liverpool Archives is in order.

 

20 hours ago, IRC Kevin said:

There you go, his Casualties Book entries. He gets a couple of mentions in my forthcoming book 'The Liverpool Rifles'- was supposed to have been out in September, but unfortunately not now hitting the shelves till May. (No idea why it'd been delayed as Fonthill completed all work for the printers back in November.)

 

Although I know he was 'C' Company, I don't know which platoon. If any of his letters mention other men, NCOs or platoon-leader for September 1917, or thereabouts, I have all the platoon reports for the action, written for forwarding to the Divisional-Commander, so may be able to identify some of the circumstances regarding his MM. Sadly, his citation is not among those surviving in Jeudwine's papers.

 

Thank you for sending these over Kevin, I am very grateful. 

 

I had noticed that a book on the Battalion was due to come out in the coming months on Amazon, I've been very much looking forward to ordering a copy. It's a shame it's been delayed but I have no doubt that it will be worth the wait.

Unfortunately I don't have any information about which platoon he served with. He does mention in one of his letters that I recently found, that the Platoon his Platoon was involved in  rescuing some trapped miners early in 1917, near Railway Wood. I had a read of the War Diary for the period but I was unable to pinpoint the date, or any details concerning which Platoon it would have been.

 

I know that he was later put in charge charge of the H.Q. Battalion Runners’ section on April 9th, 1918.

 

I've attached a copy of the letters etc. in case they are of any interest. 

Thanks again for all your help!

WW1 Letter and Notes .pdf

Edited 31 December , 2018 by Woodward

[Ken Lees]

7 hours ago, IRC Kevin said:

Mark,

The A&Q document would suggest his award was for the 20th (or thereabouts) as it's included with others known to be for the attack. There is a slight possibility that he was recommended by another battalion- 1/9th KLR or even the Loyals, as the attackers became considerably mingled, though even if this was the case his citation should have been filed with those of the 1/6th.. A considerable percentage of the award citations for 55 Division are preserved in Jeudwine's papers in Liverpool Archives. Although his is not among those of the 1/6th (a considerably lower proportion of theirs survive compared to the two KORL battalions- whether this is due to pilfering over the years, misfiling, or just coincidence, is anybody's guess), there is an outside chance that it has been misfiled or mixed up with another battalion's since the archive was deposited there- there are ten from the 1/9th filed in with the 1/6th. It would probably take 4-5 days at Liverpool Archives to go through these files as researchers are limited to 10 folders per day. I can say with certainty that it's not filed with those of the 1/6th KLR, 1/4th KORL or 1/5th KORL, as I have photographed those in entirety. If you'd like to PM me your e-mail address, I'll send you a pdf extract of the Menin Road Ridge chapter from the forthcoming book.

regards,

Kevin

 

 

I can confirm that his citation is not in any of the Jeudwine papers. I copied and indexed them all for the Museum of Liverpool Life some years ago, before they were shuffled by the curator.

[Woodward]

14 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

 

I can confirm that his citation is not in any of the Jeudwine papers. I copied and indexed them all for the Museum of Liverpool Life some years ago, before they were shuffled by the curator.

 

Thanks Ken, that's a shame but at least it saves me from having to make multiple journeys to visit the Archives.