Kings Royal Rifles Corps - regimental numbering, around 1914

[Mespot18thDiv]

The KRRC soldier I am thinking about, originated from a hamlet north of Scarborough.  Seemingly, this would have made him an ideal candidate for the A Company of the 21st (Service) Battalion of Yeoman Rifles, Autumn 1915 (he was 1 of 4 brothers, so the family was possibly involved in the 'scouring of the most remote farms and villages').

 

I have read that KRRC regimental numbers started in the 12000's early WWI.  This is where his number does not fit - it is only 8377.  Information on a KRRC website, seems to indicate (to the untrained eye), that the enlistment date for these numbers, would be around 1907, when he would only be about 17.

 

His Son said that he had enlisted as a farrier, in the Territorials in York with his mates (where he could have been seconded - worked for the North Eastern Railway, as a porter). I don't know how accurate this is.  There is no mention of the Territorials on his Medal Index Card.  

 

…. I am hoping that there is some one out there, to whom his KRRC regimental number makes sense?

 

He was not awarded the Star, so it appears he was not in a Theatre of War before 1915.

Private, or Yeoman Rifleman, John William Ward.  Dob:  4 5 1890. Born the eldest son of  the local blacksmith, in the hamlet of Stainton Dale, Scarborough.

 

[johnboy]

Quote

 

The KRRC soldier I am thinking about, originated from a hamlet north of Scarborough.  Seemingly, this would have made him an ideal candidate for the A Company of the 21st (Service) Battalion of Yeoman Rifles,

I don't quite understand,I don;t think men were allocated to a company at time of attesting can you elaborate?

 

 

 

[Alan24]

6 minutes ago, johnboy said:

The KRRC soldier I am thinking about, originated from a hamlet north of Scarborough.  Seemingly, this would have made him an ideal candidate for the A Company of the 21st (Service) Battalion of Yeoman Rifles,

I don't quite understand,I don;t think men were allocated to a company at time of attesting can you elaborate?

 

 

 

A Company of 21/KRRC were mainly men from North & East Riding upon formation in Sept 1915. This would have been diluted as the war progressed with replacements coming from all over.

 

Liz's and Mark's thread on 21/KRRC is a must read for anyone interested in 21 KRRC but their patience has been rather tested over the last few days so be gentle.

 

Regards 

 

Alan.  

[MBrockway]

The KRRC’s Service Number schematic is notoriously complex.

 

I think you are confusing the block of SNs allocated for 21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles), which began at C/12001, with the all numeric SNs used for the KRRC’s Regular battalions.

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

2 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Liz's and Mark's thread on 21/KRRC is a must read for anyone interested in 21 KRRC but their patience has been rather tested over the last few days so be gentle.

 

Regards 

 

Alan.  

[MBrockway]

Further digging shows your man to be 8377 Rfn John William WARD, KRRC, who was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and given the new MGC SN of 11543.

 

There's no KRRC battalion given on his MGC medal roll nor his MIC.

 

His MIC says he belonged to "18/MGC".  No idea whether that is 18th Coy, MGC or 18th Battalion, MGC.  Given your nickname, I assume it's the latter in 18th Division.  Neither are a good fit with a transfer in the field from a related KRRC unit.

 

As you say, the KRRC SN of 8377 would indicate a pre-War Regular enlisting circa the second half of 1907 into 1/, 2/, 3/ or 4/KRRC.  Not only is this a poor fit with your biographical data on John Ward, but one would also typically expect such a man to appear on a Star roll, which Ward does not.

 

KRRC men transferred into other regiments often have their SN letter prefixes omitted, so it is possible his actual KRRC SN was A/8377, C/8377, R/8377 or Y/8377, all of which would point to wartime enlistments, though NOT to 21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles). 

 

A/8377 and Y/8377 are well beyond the commonly accepted ends of those SN prefix ranges, so can probably be ignored.  C/8377 is viable, but would typically (but not always) indicate an enlistment into 20/KRRC (British Empire League Pioneers), which was the Pioneer battalion in 3rd Division. 

[Edit: Profuse apologies, but this is WRONG!  Service Number C/8377 falls in the block reserved for 18/KRRC (Arts & Crafts), which was a standard infantry Service battalion in 122 Brigade of 41st Division - see my post further down]

 

We can rule out R/8377 as this was allocated to another man. 

 

Unfortunately I cannot find a service nor pension record for Ward under either KRRC or MGC.

 

I note Ward also was awarded a GSM for post-War actions in Kurdistan with the MGC.  That suggest he served well into peacetime meaning his service record may still be with the MOD - see Researching a Soldier on the Mother Site for the implications of this.

 

I'm sure you're well aware that no KRRC units served in Mesopotamia or Kurdistan.

 

Sorry I can't help much with your man.

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 30 December , 2018 by MBrockway
Schoolboy error probably caused by vintage port!

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 19:47, johnboy said:

The KRRC soldier I am thinking about, originated from a hamlet north of Scarborough.  Seemingly, this would have made him an ideal candidate for the A Company of the 21st (Service) Battalion of Yeoman Rifles,

I don't quite understand,I don;t think men were allocated to a company at time of attesting can you elaborate?

 

 

 

Hello.  I have read that the Battalion was raised by the Northern Command, to intentionally enlist men believed to be holding back, from the farming communities.  The lure, "... recruits would be serving in a sort of exclusive club, that would consist only of men of equal statue.  Details below:

Taken from Scarborough Maritime Museum web site:  scarboroughsmaritimeheritage.org.uk
Scarborough at war/WWI/Yeoman Rifles 1916

 

 

“ … The only ‘Pals’ Battalion to be formed during the Great War from farmers, the Yeoman Rifles had apparently been created at the behest of the War Office in the Autumn of 1915, in consequence of the number of men of the farming and yeoman class who were believed to be holding back from enlisting.

As an enticement to the ‘reticent farmers’ the War Office had stipulated that the recruits would be serving in a sort of exclusive club that would consist only of men of ‘equal stature’. The War Office had also made service with the new battalion doubly attractive by affiliating it with one of the more elite Regiments of the British Army, The Kings Royal Rifle Corps, one of the few Regiments in which the rank of private had been substituted with that of ‘Rifleman’. Command of the new Battalion had also gone to someone of the Yeoman class, the second Earl of Faversham, Charles William Reginald Duncombe. …”

 

“… Already the long serving Commanding Officer of the Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry, the thick set, bristling moustached, thirty six year old Earl had landed in France with his regiment in April 1915, but it had subsequently been broken up into Divisional Cavalry, It’s C.O. becoming surplus to requirements and when he had been offered command of the burgeoning battalion he had gladly accepted, making his headquarters and regimental depot at his ancestral home at Duncombe Park near the village of Helmsley in North Yorkshire.

Initially, the battalion had indeed recruited exclusively from the yeoman class, however by late 1915 so many young men of military age were already in the Army that although the most remote farms and villages were scoured and although there were accommodating Recruiting Sergeants willing to turn a blind eye to the farm lads who’s tender years had been belied by a hefty physique there had still not been enough ‘Yeomen’ to make up a full Battalion.

Recruits [many from Scarborough] had arrived at Duncombe Park in drips and drabs but it was not until their numbers had been swelled by a draft of ‘less exclusive yeomen’ that the Battalion could begin training in earnest. [The Battalion had eventually consisted of four companies of Riflemen, ‘A’ was composed of men from the North and East Ridings, ‘B’ from the West Riding of Yorkshire, ‘C’ from Northumberland and Durham, and ‘D’ from Leicestershire, Lincolnshire and Norfolk]. This is not to say that the battalion had lowered its standards. According to the war records of the unit; ‘The men accepted were of a very high standard physically educationally and socially the battalion priding itself on having less crime than any other in the service’. …”

 

 

 

 

 

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 20:05, Alan24 said:

A Company of 21/KRRC were mainly men from North & East Riding upon formation in Sept 1915. This would have been diluted as the war progressed with replacements coming from all over.

 

Liz's and Mark's thread on 21/KRRC is a must read for anyone interested in 21 KRRC but their patience has been rather tested over the last few days so be gentle.

 

Regards 

 

Alan.  

 

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 20:05, Alan24 said:

A Company of 21/KRRC were mainly men from North & East Riding upon formation in Sept 1915. This would have been diluted as the war progressed with replacements coming from all over.

 

Liz's and Mark's thread on 21/KRRC is a must read for anyone interested in 21 KRRC but their patience has been rather tested over the last few days so be gentle.

 

Regards 

 

Alan.  

Hello.  I 

[Mespot18thDiv]

Hello.  I have previously looked at the above, but as there is so much of it, decided I must progress and go back later.  It is also a case of 'where to start'.  

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 20:07, MBrockway said:

The KRRC’s Service Number schematic is notoriously complex.

 

I think you are confusing the block of SNs allocated for 21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles), which began at C/12001, with the all numeric SNs used for the KRRC’s Regular battalions.

 

Mark

 

Hello.  Quite likely. This is all new territory for me, so it is a case of slowly piecing things together, from what I can gather.  Does this mean the 21st Division would have 'stood alone' with its numbering system?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Mespot

21/KRRC was a service battalion, existing only from late 1915 to March 1918, not a division.  Its numbering system was distinctive, as Mark says, C/12001 to the early C/13000s.

 

I think it's probably a red herring here - just because he came from a village in the 21/KRRC recruiting area doesn't mean he belonged to it, there were plenty of other possibilities.  

Liz

 

Edited 30 December , 2018 by Liz in Eastbourne
typo

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 21:19, MBrockway said:

Further digging shows your man to be 8377 Rfn John William WARD, KRRC, who was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and given the new MGC SN of 11543.

 

There's no KRRC battalion given on his MGC medal roll nor his MIC.

 

His MIC says he belonged to "18/MGC".  No idea whether that is 18th Coy, MGC or 18th Battalion, MGC.  Given your nickname, I assume it's the latter in 18th Division.  Neither are a good fit with a transfer in the field from a related KRRC unit.

 

As you say, the KRRC SN of 8377 would indicate a pre-War Regular enlisting circa the second half of 1907 into 1/, 2/, 3/ or 4/KRRC.  Not only is this a poor fit with your biographical data on John Ward, but one would also typically expect such a man to appear on a Star roll, which Ward does not.

 

KRRC men transferred into other regiments often have their SN letter prefixes omitted, so it is possible his actual KRRC SN was A/8377, C/8377, R/8377 or Y/8377, all of which would point to wartime enlistments, though NOT to 21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles). 

 

A/8377 and Y/8377 are well beyond the commonly accepted ends of those SN prefix ranges, so can probably be ignored.  C/8377 is viable, but would typically (but not always) indicate an enlistment into 20/KRRC (British Empire League Pioneers), which was the Pioneer battalion in 3rd Division.  We can rule out R/8377 as this was allocated to another man. 

 

Unfortunately I cannot find a service nor pension record for Ward under either KRRC or MGC.

 

I note Ward also was awarded a GSM for post-War actions in Kurdistan with the MGC.  That suggest he served well into peacetime meaning his service record may still be with the MOD - see Researching a Soldier on the Mother Site for the implications of this.

 

I'm sure you're well aware that no KRRC units served in Mesopotamia or Kurdistan.

 

Sorry I can't help much with your man.

 

Mark

 

 

 

Firstly, thank you kindly for the time and effort you have put into researching my Grandad . Much appreciated.

 

My first approach to this site was via the MGC angle, as there seemed to be more to go on and I still have some following up to do there.  I was shown on his MIC Roll, that he had been in a Battalion, not a Division, which was in, as I had thought, the Indian, 18th Battalion MGC.  I used the Rolls, to pick up the names of 23 other soldiers in his Battalion, who were also awarded the Kurdistan clasp - here again, his regimental number was much lower than theirs (11543 - the highest was 7817407) ). Mentioned that he could have been MGC trained in France, transferred to India and then on to Mesopotamia.  

 

I note what you say about the regimental numbering of the KRRC 20th Division (British Empire League Pioneers), which I see raised its troops in London. (I also note that the BEL was formed in 1895, for the purpose of promoting trade between the UK, the colonies and India, to foster closer links - India popping up again).  Do you know if it is likely a London raised Division would recruit in York?  I have had a look at the photograph featuring the 47th Platoon of the 20th Division.

 

I had put his lack of documents down to the major loss/ burning of MGC records, so I am pleased to see your note re the MOD, which I will follow up.  I knew from a comment on the 1939 Electoral Roll, that he had been a soldier from 1915 to 1920, hence the Kurdistan link, following the uprising.  It also said that he had suffered partial deafness due to dysentery.  I had always thought his disabling deafness, had been down to the machine gun fire - as one of his young grandchildren, we learnt to 'speak up'.

 

From my reading around - book and web, I had come to the conclusion that the KRRC had not featured in Mesopotamia, so there was no 'quick fix'.  Thank you for confirming this; I can stop looking.

 

…………………………………….

 

On the side:  as my Grandad was a North Eastern Railway employee, and his son said he'd enrolled in York, I felt I had to check-out the 17th Northumberland Fusiliers - the North Eastern Railway Pioneers Battalion, going as far as reading all their company magazines from 1913 - 1920, at the York Railway Museum - a good source of information (and an interesting insight into those times, especially for women).  There is a 'Roll of Men who Served', in the book  'A record of the 17th and 32nd Battalions Northumberland Fusiliers, 1914 - 1919, by
Lt- Col Shakespear', which enabled me to cross that one off the list.

 

 

[MBrockway]

Reinforcing Liz's point, the KRRC, along with the Rifle Brigade, the Guards,the artillery and the various service corps, recruited nationally. 

 

The KRRC had no county recruiting territory.

 

Although 21st battalion, KRRC (Yeoman Rifles) was raised in Northern Command and most (but NOT all) of the original establishment were from Yorkshire, the North East, the East Midlands, Lincolnshire and Norfolk, the original battalion definitely included men from outwith that core area.  Later on the heavy casualties from the Somme actions of 1916 saw large numbers of replenishment drafts joining the battalion from all over the UK, especially London and the South-East.  So much so that the battalion had essentially lost its 'Yeoman Rifles' identity by Nov 1916.

 

21/KRRC was also originally raised specifically to attract recruits from the farming and agricultural community.  Again, even in the original establishment, there were many men who were not from that sort of background.

 

21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles) did not have exclusive rights within the wider KRRC regiment to recruit in these districts - there are large numbers of men from all of these localities that enlisted into other KRRC battalions.  A man living in Scarborough wanting to enlist into the KRRC, would not automatically join 21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles).

 

You need to keep an open mind as to in which KRRC unit John Ward served.

 

If the MGC medal roll has dropped the letter prefix and his actual KRRC SN was C/8377, then I am afraid I have mislead you above.  In the hurly-burly of Christmas, I wrote hastily above that SN C/8377 would *typically* indicate enlistment into 20/KRRC (BEL Pioneers).  This is incorrect - profuse apologies.  C/8377 actually falls in the SN range reserved for 18th (Service) Battalion, KRRC (Arts & Crafts), whose SN block starts at C/6001 and ends theoretically at C/8999.  However on the medal roll the highest SN reached in this block is C/8133.  SN C/8377 would be 200+ men further past this endpoint for the block.  Even allowing for KRRC riflemen transferring out of the KRRC whose SNs would therefore not appear on any KRRC medal roll, it is probable that SN C/8377 was never allocated.

 

18/KRRC was raised in Gidea Park, Essex in June 1915.  The original establishment was recruited mainly from London, Derbyshire, Yorkshire and the East Midlands, but as with all the KRRC battalions, recruits were drawn from nationwide.

 

A regards the 20th Battalion, KRRC (BEL Pioneers), this battalion was raised in late Summer 1915 under the auspices of the British Empire League.  Beware of reading too much into the BEL connection.  I've looked into this in depth and I have not found initial recruits had any specific connection to the Empire. They seem to have been recruited in exactly the same way as any other KRRC Service battalion.  There is a lengthy topic elsewhere on the Forum where another Pal postulated that the recruits into this battalion were either from the Empire overseas or had earlier spent time as such.  This is 100% incorrect!

 

Recruiting began in earnest in Sep 1915, but they had only reached 100 or so in mid October.  Things picked up in November and by the end of that month the battalion had 800 on strength.  The majority of these were from the East End of London, particularly Woolwich, thanks to an intensive recruiting campaign there.  The battalion also conducted a recruitment 'Expeditions' to Durham and to Somerset and significant numbers joined from these, including many Durham miners, who were to prove very useful in a Pioneer battalion.

 

Early on in its history 20/KRRC negotiated use of some land in West London from the Great Western Railway for trench digging training - there's a topic on this elsewhere on the Forum.  That's the only specific railway connection I am aware of, though of course railway men would also be attractive to a Pioneer battalion in the same way as miners.

 

We cannot be certain that Rfn John William WARD, KRRC, who appears in the MGC BWM&VM medal roll with KRRC SN of 8377, did not actually have that all numeric SN, which as per above would indicate a pre-War Regular from 1/, 2/, 3/ or 4/KRRC enlisting in 1907.  3/KRRC and 4/KRRC were both serving in India at the outbreak of the War.  They quickly embarked for the UK reaching France in Dec 1914, later going out to Salonika. 

 

3/KRRC were part of the Army of Occupation in Turkey in 1919 and were stationed in Anatolia, mostly in Western Anatolia, but as far east as Angora (= Ankara).  Some way from Kurdistan admittedly, but at least in the same country!

 

Since many of the troops in the Mesopotamia army were from India, one angle to explore might be that John Ward had been in a machine gun section in 3/ or 4/KRRC and had stayed behind in India for some unknown reason when the battalions left for the UK and then later gone out as part of the MEF with the MGC.  I'm not certain, but that might *fit* the fact that he's listed as KRRC on the BWMVM roll - i.e. he was in the KRRC when his medal entitlement began.  As discussed above though, service as a pre-War Regular does not seem to sit well with the biographical details you already have for John.  How confident are you that you can completely rule out the possibility of John Ward enlisting as a Regular soldier in 1907?

 

Apologies for the long post, particularly as the conclusion is that from the sources we've seen, it's nearly impossible to know John Ward's correct KRRC service number, or his KRRC unit

 

As well as investigating whether his service record might be still available via the MOD, I would also investigate the Absent Voters List for his home address.  The AVLs somtimes give battalion detail.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan24]

7 hours ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

Hello.  I have previously looked at the above, but as there is so much of it, decided I must progress and go back later.  It is also a case of 'where to start'.  

 

The next thing I would do is to find him on the 1911 census. That will clear up if he enlisted in 1907 or not with 8377.

 

As a guide, my relative had regular service number 10066 which dates to May 1911, a month after the census, thus in April 1911 he's a civilian. 

 

Regards 

 

Alan 

 

 

[Alan24]

39 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

 

The next thing I would do is to find him on the 1911 census. That will clear up if he enlisted in 1907 or not with 8377.

 

As a guide, my relative had regular service number 10066 which dates to May 1911, a month after the census, thus in April 1911 he's a civilian. 

 

Regards 

 

Alan 

 

 

 

This is him in 1891 & 1911 - a railway porter - so not serving before 1911 which make the number 8377 a bit odd?

 

1891 census

 

1911 Census

Edited 30 December , 2018 by Alan24

[ss002d6252]

 

Here he is in 1901 - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1901/0028026574

and

1911 - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1911/RG14/28949/0429/5

 

Craig

[Alan24]

On 28/12/2018 at 21:19, MBrockway said:

 

We can rule out R/8377 as this was allocated to another man. 

 

 

Strangely, R/8377 was also a NER Porter.

[Mespot18thDiv]

Wow!  That sorts that one out then.  As you say, strange that it is another NER Porter.  He is also based in an area that my Grandad could have been seconded to.  He survived, so it is not a case of Dobson Or Woodhouse Or Ward …  I was wondering if there was any reissuing of numbers, but I see he died 1916, and my Grandad's service was noted as starting in 1915, on 1939 Electoral roll.  

 

With regard to 3/KRRC being part of the Army of Occupation stationed in Angora,Turkey in 1919 and questioning whether he had been in a MG section in 3/4 KRRC and had stayed behind in India for some unknown reason when the Battalion left for the UK and then later gone out as part of the MEF with the MGC.  I can think of a good reason for being 'left' behind - hospitalisation, with tropical diseases and dysentery rife amongst the troops. I know he had dysentery.

 

 

[MBrockway]

5 hours ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

 

With regard to 3/KRRC being part of the Army of Occupation stationed in Angora,Turkey in 1919 and questioning whether he had been in a MG section in 3/4 KRRC and had stayed behind in India for some unknown reason when the Battalion left for the UK and then later gone out as part of the MEF with the MGC.  I can think of a good reason for being 'left' behind - hospitalisation, with tropical diseases and dysentery rife amongst the troops. I know he had dysentery.

 

 

 

No sign of a Rfn John Ward, born Scarborough, with the KRRC's 3rd or 4th Battalions in the 1911 Census of India.

 

The closest is a Rfn John Ward, born Salford, Lancs.

[Mespot18thDiv]

Thank you for looking.

 

I have checked out the number R/8377 on the KRRC MI Roll (via Charles H White, R8370).  It belongs to Arthur Woodhouse - one of the 2 names mentioned on the citation.  I am now wondering if there's a number missing at the beginning of the number quoted for my Grandad ie 18337, 28337 are not assigned to anyone on the KRRC MI Roll. Or worse, could the KRRC link be wrong too.

 

I have sent the MOD form off. A reply with some answers would be very nice.

[Alan24]

7 hours ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

 

I have checked out the number R/8377 on the KRRC MI Roll (via Charles H White, R8370).  It belongs to Arthur Woodhouse - one of the 2 names mentioned on the citation. 

 

Dobson and Woodhouse are the same man. He enlisted under his birth name Dobson but was adopted by Woodhouse when his mother remarried.

 

The details below suggest that he enlisted on 26 Sept 1914.

 

Details of his death were published in the NER Magazine Dec 1917, with photos, now held at the National Railway Museum York.

 

I would suggest seeking out this source as your relative may be listed here too if they had a 'Rally to the Flag' type of column. You will probably have to visit the museum in person.

 

The rest of the details for Dobson/Woodhouse are below FYI...

 

Regards 

 

Alan.

 

The adopted son of Mr Woodhouse, rulleyman at Leeds Wellington Street. He is listed in the St Paul's Order of Service and the NER Magazine under his birth name of Dobson, but in the Commonwealth War Graves under his adopted name. He enlisted on 26 December 1914. Killed in action.
Photo	Yes
Information source	St Paul's Cathedral Order of Service 1919; North Eastern Railway Magazine; Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Magazine reference	North Eastern Railway Magazine, Dec 1917, p268
Register type	Records
Archive	National Railway Museum

Edited 5 January , 2019 by Alan24

[Mespot18thDiv]

Ah, that explains that, I thought it was a 'bit loose' for a citation.  I had read that he had a foster Mother; Emily - personal effects document.

 

In my earlier attempts to pursue all avenues, I spent 2 days in the York Railway Museum and read all the NER magazines from 1913 to 1920.  Interesting stuff, but 'not a crumb'.  The most obvious enlistment for a NER railway man seemed to be, The 17th  Northumberland Fusiliers - NER Railway Pioneers, with enlistment at the York Railway Institute, billet on Hull Docks. Sight of their Roll of Men Who Served, discounted that one.

 

I feel that he was tied in to the Army, in some way before that, as my Grandad's son said, he joined a Territorial group, with his mates before the war started; as you can see Railway lads doing - paid to go off to camp etc.  Said he signed up as a farrier - trained by his blacksmith father.  Then surprised to find he was enlisted, when war broke out.  Of course, none of this seems to make sense, as there was no Territorial unit linked to the KRRC.

 

However, if he has been recorded with someone else's number, it could be he wasn't in the KRRC either. 

 

His hearing was damaged during the war (dysentery), but it seems he did manage to continue his railway career as a porter.  He didn't return home until 1920 (in Kurdistan) and I guess he was not too robust - suffered recurring bouts of pleurisy, (my Granny said she once kept him alive, with a teaspoon of whisky every hour, until he pulled through), but he was gallantly supported within his community.  His parents were long term residents in the hamlet he came from - Stainton Dale, renting their property from the Duchy of Lancaster, who kindly provided him with a cottage on his return. It seems he balanced employment between working at the forge and the railway halt - Hayburn Wyke, 2 miles south of Stainton Dale.   His son said he could work there because he could hear the bells.  I hadn't been able to document this, but recently I was shown a 1949 photograph of him, stood in railway coat (and bicycle clips), outside a signed porters room.  Taken by the station master at Stainton Dale (now spelt Staintondale), so I was happy about that.  

[Mespot18thDiv]

One thing I didn't mention that Kenf48 has brought to light:

The soldier with the follow-on MGC SN 11544, Pte Hartley, was killed on the Western Front 1 August 1916.  He signed up in Pontefract.

[MBrockway]

On 28/12/2018 at 21:19, MBrockway said:

We can rule out R/8377 as this was allocated to another man. 

Mark

 

On 05/01/2019 at 00:54, Mespot18thDiv said:

Thank you for looking.

 

I have checked out the number R/8377 on the KRRC MI Roll (via Charles H White, R8370).  It belongs to Arthur Woodhouse - one of the 2 names mentioned on the citation.  I am now wondering if there's a number missing at the beginning of the number quoted for my Grandad ie 18337, 28337 are not assigned to anyone on the KRRC MI Roll. Or worse, could the KRRC link be wrong too.

 

I have sent the MOD form off. A reply with some answers would be very nice.

 

Once I had eliminated him from being Rfn John William WARD, I did not think it worthwhile posting the detail of R/8377.

 

Alan's information on Dobson/Woodhouse also being an LNER porter is rather interesting though.

 

I assume "MI Roll" refers to the medal index cards, though those are in no way any form of roll?  Spent a few mins scratching my head as to why you'd introduced the KRRC's Boer War Mounted Infantry medal rolls!

 

Mark

 

[Mespot18thDiv]

Oh …  that's what you get for 'trawling' late at night!  Apologies - thank you for putting me straight.

 

I have now gone back in years to my original searching ie the Territorial Force and have found an interesting, very detailed, diary produced by the North Eastern Daily Gazette, which includes a page from the Cleveland Standard.  They cover the Territorial Force Annual Camp, in Redcar 1913, 26 July - 9 August.  The 3000 strong camp is that of the Durham and York Brigade - attached units 4th & 5th Yorks, 5th Durham, 4th East Yorks, with Ambulance and Army Service Corps.

 

5th Yorkshire Regiment, HQ in Scarborough quoted to be, "... not so strong, the figures being less than 650. …", which is probably where the KRRC 21st Div came in.

I note that the 5th's Lieut-Colonel is Sir Mark Sykes, who set up the Wolds Waggoners from men on his Sledmere estate. (I've been down this road too - re Norfolk brother of my Granny's first husband).

 

Camp note also said, "...  Special attention was paid to the recruits, signaling, and the machine gun section.".

 

I mention the 5th, because I now understand that you were only allowed to join a unit close to where you lived, so this would fit.  
I have also seen, that the TF typically served with a SN under 10,000, which (if the 8377 number still stands) would reverse his role to being one of the later enlisters.

 

Strangely, the units full name seems to be the Alexandra, Princess of Wales' Own (Yorkshire Regiment), with connotations of the 'Terriiers' and the 'Green Howards'.

……………………………………..

 

I have also revisited something I had on the 'back burner', from the Scarborough Maritime Museum site, which looks a lot more applicable now the KRRC link has gone.

Relates to a Pte from Scarborough, who died following a burst appendix in Mesopotamia (lack of medical care).  James Edward Darling, born 23 8 1890, died 17 8 1917.  Enlisted into the Yorkshire Regiment, 22777 in Scarborough, which led to the 3rd Reserve (based in Richmond).  Then trained in the MGC Grantham and drafted to the Middle East/273rd MGC, which was formed in Oct/Nov 1917 and I see joined the 13th Div, which I know was in Mesopotamia.  He then joined the 'newly formed', 18th Indian Div MGC, 103743.  Said he died after being abroad about a year, which meant he left England around August 1916.

 

The site also gives quite a lot of personal details for 8 KRRC soldiers who died:

Riflemen: Edmund Daws C/12526,

James Alfred Alcock C/12307,

John Bedford Rowley C/12497

Harold Fowler C/12203,

Horace Pugmire C/12678,

Sgt Samuel Beech Horsman C/12137,

Acting Cpl Harry Mitchell R/19404 (village of Scalby - north of Scarborough),

erg Alfred Percival Sleightholme, (Kirby Misperton) - no number.

 

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> > > Well, I guess this brings my KRRC trail to an end. 

I would like to thank everyone that has contributed to my search and say that I have learnt lots, as well thoroughly enjoyed my insight into the KRRC.

 

Edited 7 January , 2019 by Mespot18thDiv
Sorry, kicked off line before I could check Riflemen details