Joseph TUNBRIDGE - 3 regiments and KIA

[stephen p nunn]

Hi all.

My lovely wife and daughter did me proud again this Christmas. I got a casualty pair, a 15 Star casualty (more about those later) and a damaged and bent BWM to a Joseph TUNBRIDGE.

 

From my research so far, it appears that he was born in January 1891 in Stratford (Leytonstone), London, the eldest son of James Tunbridge (1869-1924) and Eleanor Sarah Sallnow (1871-1913).

 

I can see him in the census for: 1891 – living with parents (as only child) in part of 5 Malvern Villa, Cann Hall Road, Wanstead, Leyton. (Father was a labourer): 1901 – living with parents (and brothers James and George and sister Nellie and George Sallnow, uncle) at 16 Cobden Road, Leyton. (Father was a Mineral Water Manufacturer – employer): and 1911 – still living with parents (and sisters Nellie, Lily and Edith and brothers Harry, Alfred and Arthur and George Sallnow, uncle) at 16 Cobden Road, Leytonstone. (Father was still an employer – Mineral Works). Joseph was a Carmen at the Mineral Works.

 

According to SDGW he enlisted at Leyton, Essex, but appears to have had an interesting military career. He variously served in:

The 5^th Norfolk Regiment (as 5939)

The 1^st Bn. Cambridgeshire Regiment (as 327698)

And ultimately the 1^st/6^th Bn. Gloucestershire Regiment (as 285111)

 

He Died 17/8/1917 (Killed in Action) and is burried Dunhalow A.D.S. Cemetery (at I.B.17)

 

He was entitled to the pair (British War and Victory medals) and as I say I have his damaged BWM.

 

Can anyone throw any light on his time in the 3 regiments in question and what happened to him in the summer of 1917?

 

Thanks all in advance.

 

Best regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

 

 

[John Milner]

He was with the 1/6th Gloucestershires when he died, which were attached to the 144th Brigade, 48th (South Midland) Division, and took part in the Battle of Langemarck 16-17 August 1917, the145th Brigade captured St Julien on 16 August, the war diaries will detail what action the 144th Brigade/1/6th Battalion was involved in on 17 August.  He is buried in Dunhallow ADS Cemetery which is west of the canal bank, which would suggest that he was wounded and died after being evacuated to Dunhallow.

 

John

[stephen p nunn]

1 hour ago, John Milner said:

He was with the 1/6th Gloucestershires when he died, which were attached to the 144th Brigade, 48th (South Midland) Division, and took part in the Battle of Langemarck 16-17 August 1917, the145th Brigade captured St Julien on 16 August, the war diaries will detail what action the 144th Brigade/1/6th Battalion was involved in on 17 August.  He is buried in Dunhallow ADS Cemetery which is west of the canal bank, which would suggest that he was wounded and died after being evacuated to Dunhallow.

 

John

Thank you very much John. the picture is building.

Best wishes.

Stephen (Maldon).

[ss002d6252]

The war gratuity shows he had 16 months service which indicates enlistment in the month from 18 Apr 1916.

 

Craig

[stephen p nunn]

23 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The war gratuity shows he had 16 months service which indicates enlistment in the month from 18 Apr 1916.

 

Craig

That's really helpful Craig - thank you. Stephen (Maldon).

[Mick Tunbridge]

Sorry I'm so late to this thread.  I was researching family history when I found it. Joseph tunbridge would have been my great uncle.  I'd like to ask you guys where you found the information that you have on him please?

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. The photo looks very much like WW2 vintage,  not Great War. 

Michelle

[PhilB]

The OP suggests that the poster has a 15 star and bent BWM to this man but he is only entitled to a BWM & VM pair?

[PRC]

Hi @Mick Tunbridge and welcome to the forum.

The Joe Tunbridge you have posted a picture of is almost certainly not the Joseph Tunbridge being talked about here. The picture is late 30's onwards and very likely WW2.

Which isn't to say we are not discussing your great uncle - he may well be a Joseph Tunbridge from an earlier generation or two to the man in the picture. You need to provide some more information on your Great-uncle and we can see if a connection can be made.

On 27/12/2018 at 13:40, stephen p nunn said:

According to SDGW he enlisted at Leyton, Essex, but appears to have had an interesting military career. He variously served in:

The 5^th Norfolk Regiment (as 5939)

The 1^st Bn. Cambridgeshire Regiment (as 327698)

And ultimately the 1^st/6^th Bn. Gloucestershire Regiment (as 285111)

The 5th Norfolk's comes from SDGW and is almost certainly the first unit he was posted to, probably on conscription or mobilisation. All the 5th Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment were Territorial Force, although post the passing of the Military Services Act of 1916 such distinctions fell a bit to the side,
All of the Battalions of the Cambridgeshire Regiment were Territorial Force and that six digit service number would have come from the early 1917 renumbering. The block allocated to the 1st Battalions was 325001 to 350000. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

Given that he was effectively the 2,698 person to be renumbered, he was either most likely serving with one of the home service battalions at the time of the renumbering, or he received it subsequently on being transferred in. In the latter case he would have had a six digit Norfolk Regiment service number but without a surviving service record that would never be known. As he died on the 17th August 1917 that leaves a comparatively narrow window for him to be transferred from the Cambridgeshire Regiment - although it might make more sense it was an administrative posting in order to send him overseas as part of a general draft. He would then land in France as a Cambridgeshire Regiment man, (which technically would be true), but on arrival at the Infantry Base Depot he was then compulsorarily transferred to a Territorial Force battalion of the Gloucestershire Regiment.

To check that out I took a look at nearby service numbers for the Gloucestershire Regiment.

285109 Harry Taplin was previously 330429 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC). Killed in action 9th October 1917 serving with 1/6th Gloucesters. Formerly 330429 Cambridgeshire Regiment. (SDGW).

285110 John Tinkler was previously 325442 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC).

285112 Henry W. Turner was previously 328835 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC). Killed in action 9th October 1917 with 1/6th Gloucesters. Formerly 5605, 5th Royal West Surrey Regiment. (SDGW).

285113 Richard E. Turner was previously 330532 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC)

285114 No MiC match. No surviving service records (FMP)

285115 Thomas Taylor was previously 329791 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC) Has surviving service records. Deemed to have been enlisted 1st September 1916, he was called up for service on the 20th October 1916 aged 32 and posted to the 4/1st Battalion Cambridgeshire Regiment on the 23rd October 1916. He had previously worked as a Footman. He was posted to the 1/1st Battalion on the 15th June 1917 and then compulsorarily transferred to the 1/6th Gloucesters on the 7th July 1917. He was wounded in action on the 12th August 1917 and then again on the 9th October 1917. The latter would lead to his subsequent discharge and award of the Silver War Badge – not mentioned on MiC.

285116 Francis A. Voigt was previously 330533 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC). Francis Adolphus Voigt “Died” on the 18th August 1917 with 1/6th Gloucesters. Formerly 9547 Cambridgeshire Regiment. (SDGW). CWGC has him as “Voight”.

285117 Albert West subsequently 424319 Labour Corps and 77417 Manchester Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC)

285118 Clive Woods was previously 330436 Cambridgeshire Regiment, (latter number not catalogued at the National Archive but written across the top of the card.). Was entitled to VM & BWM as well as the Silver War Badge. Enlisted 9th December 1915. Discharged 3rd June 1918. Survivng service record shows enlisted 15th November 1916 aged 25, (so born circa 1891) and previously a Civil Service Clerk. According to the B.103 Casualty Form Active Service he appears to have been initially in the 4/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment, then posted to 1/1st Cambridgeshire Regiment. Embarked Folkestone and landed Boulogne on the 15th June 1917. Arrived 15 Infantry Base Depot, then in the process of being renamed ‘M’ Depot on the 16th June. While there he was compulsorily transferred to the 1/6th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, on the 7th July 1917. He joined up with his new unit in the field on the 10th July 1917. He suffered a Gunshot wound in the Thigh on the 9th October 1917 at Ypres which would lead to his eventual discharge. (Note there are no surviving attestation documents or statement of services, so first unit and dates of transfer prior to going overseas cannot be confirmed).

285119 Arthur Woodward was previously 329793 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC) Admitted 39th Casualty Clearing Station on 29th May 1918. Unit given as 1/6th Gloucesters. (FMP)

285120 Ernest S. Speed was previously 326507 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC). Admitted 39th Casualty Clearing Station 5th August 1918. Unit given as 1/6th Gloucesters. (FMP)

285121 Benjamin Stevens was previously 327192 Cambridgeshire Regiment. VM & BWM only (MiC)

A limited sample but so far looking like a combination of men who had been kicking around in the UK and who had migrated into the 4/1st Battalion Cambridgement Regiment when their own Territorial Force unit was merged or ceased to exist, (the 5th Reserve Battalion Norfolk Regiment was absorbed into the 4th Reserve Battalion on the 1st September 1916 and the 5th Reserve Battalion Royal West Surrey Regiment was absorbed into that regiments 4th Reserve Battalion on the 1st September 1916) along with men who had been posted there on mobilisation. A draft from the 4/1st Battalion Cambridgeshire Regiment were then administratively transferred to the 1/1st Battalion Cambridgeshire Regiment on the 15th June 1917, being sent overseas on the same day. Embarked Folkestone and landed Boulogne on the 15th June 1917. Arrived 15 Infantry Base Depot (aka ‘M’ Depot) on the 16th June. While there they were compulsorily transferred to the 1/6th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, on the 7th July 1917. They joined up with their new unit in the field on the 10th July 1917.

Our parent site the Long, Long Trail shows the 4/1st Battalion, Cambridgeshire Regiment "Moved in June 1916 to Harrogate, then Doncaster in October, Thoresby in May 1917. October 1917 : disbanded." https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cambridgeshire-regiment/

There is nothing to show that Joseph Tunbridge saw overseas service with the 1/5th Norfolks.  The service number 5622 was issued by the 5th Norfolks to Herbert Edwin Moore on the 4th April 1916, so with a service number 5939, Joseph must have joined after Herbert but before the 1st September 1916.

Hope that helps,

Peter

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

The service number 5622 was issued by the 5th Norfolks to Herbert Edwin Moore on the 4th April 1916, so with a service number 5939, Joseph must have joined after Herbert but before the 1st September 1916.

The war gratuity tells us it was in the month from 18 April 1916 so we can narrow it to no later than 17 May 1916.

Craig

[PRC]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The war gratuity tells us it was in the month from 18 April 1916 so we can narrow it to no later than 17 May 1916.

1891 Census of England & Wales shows him as 3 months old so as the OP says most likely born January 1891 - at worse December 1890. Nothing to indicate he was married so he would have been in Group 7 or Group 8 under the Derby Scheme and so mobilised 8th Februay 1916. As he went later would that tend to suggest he was a conscript?

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

1891 Census of England & Wales shows him as 3 months old so as the OP says most likely born January 1891 - at worse December 1890. Nothing to indicate he was married so he would have been in Group 7 or Group 8 under the Derby Scheme and so mobilised 8th Februay 1916. As he went later would that tend to suggest he was a conscript?

Cheers,
Peter

Hard to say - a lot of Derby men ended up being mixed up within the conscripts by call up date. So, he could have been delayed for call-up or subject to conscription.

Craig

[Mick Tunbridge]

Thanks Peter

Thinking about it, it couldn't be the same Joseph . The one you were asking about is definitely my relative as everything else matches up. My grandad, Richard Henry (Harry) Tunbridge fought in the second world war, he was captured by the Japanese and worked on the Burma railway. Luckily he was captured towards the end of the war. The Joseph in the picture must be his Brother He had a brother Joseph and a George that I also have a picture of in uniform. Is Joseph mentioned in your book?  I'd like to see a picture of his medal if thats possible?

I'm new to online research. Is their a site where I might find records on my grandad and his brothers?

Thanks again

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Mick Tunbridge said:

Thanks Peter

Thinking about it, it couldn't be the same Joseph . The one you were asking about is definitely my relative as everything else matches up. My grandad, Richard Henry (Harry) Tunbridge fought in the second world war, he was captured by the Japanese and worked on the Burma railway. Luckily he was captured towards the end of the war. The Joseph in the picture must be his Brother He had a brother Joseph and a George that I also have a picture of in uniform. Is Joseph mentioned in your book?  I'd like to see a picture of his medal if thats possible?

I'm new to online research. Is their a site where I might find records on my grandad and his brothers?

Thanks again

Try ww2talk for WW2 discussion - the service records will still be with the MoD and would need to be ordered from them. Very few WW2 records are in the public domain.

Craig

[Mick Tunbridge]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Try ww2talk for WW2 discussion - the service records will still be with the MoD and would need to be ordered from them. Very few WW2 records are in the public domain.

Craig

Thanks Craig

[Mick Tunbridge]

10 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum. The photo looks very much like WW2 vintage,  not Great War. 

Michelle

Yes, the Joseph that peter was asking about is definitely related as all the other details match up. As he said the one in the picture must be earlier generation.

I replied to peter at the bottom of the page without hitting the quote button. Forgive my ignorance but does he still get notification?

[PRC]

On 26/07/2021 at 16:32, Mick Tunbridge said:

My grandad, Richard Henry (Harry) Tunbridge fought in the second world war, he was captured by the Japanese and worked on the Burma railway. Luckily he was captured towards the end of the war. The Joseph in the picture must be his Brother He had a brother Joseph and a George that I also have a picture of in uniform. Is Joseph mentioned in your book?  I'd like to see a picture of his medal if thats possible?

I'm new to online research. Is their a site where I might find records on my grandad and his brothers?

 

On 26/07/2021 at 01:32, Mick Tunbridge said:

 I'd like to ask you guys where you found the information that you have on him please?

Assuming he was born in England & Wales, the only likely match I can see in the Civil Records was a Richard Henry Tunbridge, whose birth was registered with the Civil Authorities in the West Ham District of Essex in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1906. Mothers’ maiden name was Sallnow – which ties in with the parents details provided by @stephen p nunn. Richard Henry is almost certainly the Harry referred to as being a brother of Joseph Tunbridge on the 1911 Census of England and Wales – that young man was aged 4 and born Leytonstone, Essex. The family were living at 16 Cobden Road, Leytonstone and the administrative information that goes with the Census return shows that address fell with the West Ham Civil Registration District for Births, Marriages and Deaths.

I’m afraid I don’t have a book with all the information in I’ve posted. It’s put together from various online sources.

Subscription Genealogy sites like Ancestry, FindMyPast, Genes Reunited and The Genealogist will give you access to the likes of the Censuses of England & Wales, the Civil Birth, Marriage and Death Indexes, some Electoral Registers for England, some Parish Registers for England and potentially lots of other goodies. Often you will also have access to scans of the original documents so you not only can check the transcriptions provided for accuracy, but quite often there is information that hasn’t been transcribed. Each has a mish-mash of sources - no one site has them all.

Familysearch has a number of these sources as well and is free to join and use. However sources like the England & Wales Censuses are basic transcription only. https://www.familysearch.org/search/

FreeBMD provides a free search facility for looking up civil birth, marriages and deaths for England & Wales based on the quarterly index published by the General Registrars Office – so you wont get an exact date of birth, just the quarter registered, (which isn’t automatically the same thing as quarter born - genealogy tip). https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

FreeReg does something similar for Parish records and tries to cover Scotland and Ireland as well, although it is transcription only. https://www.freereg.org.uk/

Ancestry and FindMyPast also have a lot of Military records, although Ancestry is increasingly putting them on its’ US sister site, Fold3, which requires a separate subscription.

If Other Ranks service records have survived, (most from the Great War were lost in WW2 when German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were being stored), those three sites is where you will find them. Officers records are not on line but can be viewed at the National Archive at Kew. The usual starting point if there are no service records are the Medal Index Cards. These literally were Index Cards created at the relevant records office in late 1918\early 1919 to keep track of the documentation relating to the issue of service medals. These are very basic – you won’t find a date of birth and for other ranks hardly ever an address.

The MiC’s can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive once you’ve created an account, but are in black & white and only show the front. Most of the time that is not an issue as most backs are blank. However even the basic free account on Ancestry give you access to a colour scan of the card front & back. FindMyPast just offers a transcription service. At this point I should  just mention Forces War Records – see I’ve mentioned it, so now we can move on

Our parent site The Long, Long Trail, has a comparison page for the various websites coverage of the Great War period:- https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/online-information-service-providers-which-is-best/

Details of the Service Medals award criteria and pictures can be found on the LLT here:- https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

You also may start coming across references to the Silver War Badge – see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/records-of-the-silver-war-badge/

As you dig deeper you will start to find other sources.

Your grandfather Richard H Tunbridge, born 16th May 1906, turns up on the 1939 Register as the first person in the household at 15, Sultan Road, Wanstead. He is shown as a Married Bricklayers Labourer. The Register, available on Ancestry & FindMyPast, was basically a mini-census taken on the 29th September 1939, and was initially used as a gauge of the labour power available and the skill mix of the population as it prepared for another industrial war. The fact that he is on it means he wasn’t a pre-war soldier, either a Regular or Territorial. They had already been mobilised and were at their wartime station, so were outside the scope of the exercise.The Register was subsequently used to control the issue of ID Cards and Ration Books, and in 1948 it became the initial Registry document of the NHS, being updated with details like change of surname until the early 1990’s. The fact that his details are visible means either the NHS knew he had died before 1993, or he was over 100 years old when a limited section of each household return was made available as a result of a Freedom of Information request in 2011.

I’m not coming across his name in the WW" British Army Casualty lists, but they aren’t always complete and typo’s do happen.

Unfortunately the Joseph in the picture cannot be your Great Uncle who died in the Great War – that style of uniform is later than the Great War period. This forum http://ww2talk.com/index.php
may be able to make something of the visual clues in the picture, particularly the partial cap badge that can be be seen

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Mick Tunbridge]

On 27/07/2021 at 08:53, PRC said:

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Thats great. Thanks Peter

 

[Mick Tunbridge]

Hi Peter

Do you still have the medal of Joe Tunbridge. He's my great Uncle. I'd love to see a picture of it.

Thanks

Mick Tunbridge

[stephen p nunn]

11 hours ago, Mick Tunbridge said:

Hi Peter

Do you still have the medal of Joe Tunbridge. He's my great Uncle. I'd love to see a picture of it.

Thanks

Mick Tunbridge

Hi Mick. Yes, I do. I collect Ypres area casualty medals (and have done for many years). Joe Tunbridge's BWM is part of the collection. Here it is......

[TomWW1]

11 hours ago, Mick Tunbridge said:

Hi Peter

Do you still have the medal of Joe Tunbridge. He's my great Uncle. I'd love to see a picture of it.

Thanks

Mick Tunbridge

@PRC hopefully this ping will alert him to this post 

[Michelle Young]

I think @Mick Tunbridge actually meant Stephen rather than Peter! 

[TomWW1]

13 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

I think @Mick Tunbridge actually meant Stephen rather than Peter! 

Whoops sorry!

[stephen p nunn]

No proble all - I have been called a lot worse!

Looking through my notes, my wife and I visited Joseph's grave on Friday (8/3/19). This was the schedule:

Crossing at 7.50am.

Arrived in Calais and drove to Coxyde to pay our respects to Cpl. Tindale.

On to Dunhalow ADS to remember J. Tunbridge (at I.B.17).

Ypres - booked in to Ariane and had an excellent lunch.

Menin Gate in the evening - remembered E. Nunn (panel 39).

Ariane for supper.

NOT FORGOTTEN

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

[stephen p nunn]