Mespot, 18th Div MGC, John W Ward, 11543

[Mespot18thDiv]

Hello.  I have obtained what details I have from my Grandfather's Medal card (doesn't seem to be anything else on record, but I haven't been down to Kew yet).  As he was awarded a Kurdistan clasp, I gathered he had been in Mesopotamia.  I know from the 1939 Electoral Roll that he served as a soldier 1915 - 1920, so it looks as though he was there for the postwar uprising (it also said that his deafness had been caused by dysentery, not the machine guns as I had always thought). 

I was told that he joined the Territorials with his mates in York, whilst working for the North Eastern Railway and then found himself enlisted.  Noted that he was in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, 8377 and then the Machine Gun Corps, 11543.  To the left of the MGC initials is the number 18.  From this I have deduced (wrongly or rightly), that he was in the Indian 18th Division, of which I would like to know more.  Date of birth 4 5 1890.  Unusually (and good for me), he has his family address on his medal card, so I know it is definitely his.  I think this is probably because he joined the Territorials with a railway lodging house address.  I attach a photograph of him, in what looks like a cheap, belt-less uniform, with MGC badge on cap.  I have his MGC shoulder badge.

 

I would appreciate any details that would help me put some flesh on these bare bones, as I have been on this trail for some years … off and on. 

[roughdiamond]

The Kurdistan Clasp I'm sure you've realised was on the General Service Medal.

 

Normally I'd expect "18" in front of MGC to represent 18th Battalion MGC which was 18th Division however this Div finished the War in France and demobbed between December 1918 and March 1919, he may have transferred.

 

Sam

[MaureenE]

According to Wikipedia, the Kurdistan Clasp was awarded for those 

At Kirkuk or north of a line east and west through Kirkurk between 23 May and 31 July 1919.

At Dohok or north of a line east and west through Dohok between 14 July and 7 October 1919.

North of the advanced bases near Akra and Amadia between 7 November and 6 December 1919.

 

The following is an article by Harry Fecitt (Forum member bushfighter) Military Operations in Mesopotamian Kurdistan 1919

http://www.kaiserscross.com/304501/527922.html

An endnote to the article says "Many more units than those mentioned in the above text served in the 1919 Kurdistan campaigns but this article has concentrated on the major actions and the units involved in those actions.  Information on other units involved can be obtained by studying page 2882 to the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 8 March 1920, and by reading page 517 of British Battles and Medals.

 

The following British Library blog may be of interest as background as it is about the Kurds in 1919, but mainly the British mentioned are RAF.

“The Hero’s Rock”- When the Kurds Rebelled

https://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/2018/01/the-heros-rock-when-the-kurds-rebelled.html

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

[kenf48]

Welcome to the forum

 

The operations post war tended to involve ‘scratch’ units.  

 

General MacMunn’s Despatch with an Appendix of the units involved can be read here

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31813/supplement/2877

as you surmise there are two MG Companies of the 18th Indian Division listed. 

 

The KRRC did not raise any TF Battalions.  There are a couple of pals on here who have extensive records of the KRRC. If you amend your title you may attract their attention.

 

The MGC was formed October 1915 and 11543 was a relatively early transfer approximately beginning of March 1916, probably to France in April (6 weeks training).  It is possible he was posted to India, which was the staging post for Mesopotamia after his transfer but, 

11544 Hartley (Pontefract)  formerly KRRC was killed on 1 August 1916 on the Western Front.

 

This suggests he was posted to India/Mesopotamia later in the war but will need further research.

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 December , 2018 by kenf48

[MaureenE]

Perhaps the actual Medal Roll may give more information.

 

My understanding is that the  Medal Roll for the Kurdistan Clasp would be digitised on Ancestry, in the database "UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949", being the record series WO 100 from TNA, Kew.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1686

 

Or you can download it for free from TNA . I think WO 100/418 would be the correct reference, as it contains the Machine Gun Corps even though the date range is stated to be from 1920.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11200014

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Edit The Ancestry link is https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Cxt2&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=campaignmedalrolls&cp=0&_F4E2F07A=11543&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&uidh=nn4&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=2&h=810622&recoff=&ml_rpos=3

 

and I don't know enough to know whether the remarks are relevant or merely relate to administrative matters.

 

Note, classified by Ancestry   "Campaign or Service:Napoleonic Wars"

Edited 24 December , 2018 by Maureene

[david murdoch]

His GSM medal roll notes his unit as 18th Indian Battalion.

[Mespot18thDiv]

22 hours ago, roughdiamond said:

The Kurdistan Clasp I'm sure you've realised was on the General Service Medal.

 

Normally I'd expect "18" in front of MGC to represent 18th Battalion MGC which was 18th Division however this Div finished the War in France and demobbed between December 1918 and March 1919, he may have transferred.

 

Sam

Thank you for your very speedy reply. Yes, I picked the clasp up from the GS Medal. I started with the 18th Division and then realised that there was a bit more to it/things didn't fit, and that it was in fact the 18th Indian Division.  One of my other replies … very exciting, has produced a document that shows it was a Battalion, not a Division.

[Mespot18thDiv]

20 hours ago, Maureene said:

According to Wikipedia, the Kurdistan Clasp was awarded for those 

At Kirkuk or north of a line east and west through Kirkurk between 23 May and 31 July 1919.

At Dohok or north of a line east and west through Dohok between 14 July and 7 October 1919.

North of the advanced bases near Akra and Amadia between 7 November and 6 December 1919.

 

The following is an article by Harry Fecitt (Forum member bushfighter) Military Operations in Mesopotamian Kurdistan 1919

http://www.kaiserscross.com/304501/527922.html

An endnote to the article says "Many more units than those mentioned in the above text served in the 1919 Kurdistan campaigns but this article has concentrated on the major actions and the units involved in those actions.  Information on other units involved can be obtained by studying page 2882 to the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 8 March 1920, and by reading page 517 of British Battles and Medals.

 

The following British Library blog may be of interest as background as it is about the Kurds in 1919, but mainly the British mentioned are RAF.

“The Hero’s Rock”- When the Kurds Rebelled

https://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/2018/01/the-heros-rock-when-the-kurds-rebelled.html

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Thank you so much for your reply.  You have certainly given me a lot to think about/pursue.  My one regret is that it is Christmas Eve and I must  be good and get on with other things.  I will be back.  

[Mespot18thDiv]

20 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the forum

 

The operations post war tended to involve ‘scratch’ units.  

 

General MacMunn’s Despatch with an Appendix of the units involved can be read here

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31813/supplement/2877

as you surmise there are two MG Companies of the 18th Indian Division listed. 

 

The KRRC did not raise any TF Battalions.  There are a couple of pals on here who have extensive records of the KRRC. If you amend your title you may attract their attention.

 

The MGC was formed October 1915 and 11543 was a relatively early transfer approximately beginning of March 1916, probably to France in April (6 weeks training).  It is possible he was posted to India, which was the staging post for Mesopotamia after his transfer but, 

11544 Hartley (Pontefract)  formerly KRRC was killed on 1 August 1916 on the Western Front.

 

This suggests he was posted to India/Mesopotamia later in the war but will need further research.

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, thank you for the welcome.  I would have replied to you sooner but managed to lock myself out, with what I thought was a simplistic password.  Thank you also for the information supplied.  I will do as you suggest re the KRRC connection … after Christmas - duty calls.  There seem to be quite a few gaps in his movements.  I had come to the conclusion that he must have been one of the earlier MGC recruits, perhaps he was picked out for his blacksmith skills (trained by his father) - good at making and mending.  I've had a look at Pte Hartley who sadly, was only 18 when he died.  I am wondering if he also signed up at York - would that be necessary to get consecutive numbers.

[Mespot18thDiv]

8 hours ago, david murdoch said:

His GSM medal roll notes his unit as 18th Indian Battalion.

Thank you.  It was thrilling to actually see my Grandfather's name on an official document after so long wandering in the wilderness!  It is also good to know I should  be looking for a Battalion not a Division.  I have seen that it was compiled from 207, 238, 239 and 249 Indian MGC's.  For interest, I am going to look at Pt Whiting, as they appear to have soldiered together.   Christmas duties are calling but I will be back.

[roughdiamond]

2 hours ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

It is also good to know I should  be looking for a Battalion not a Division.  I have seen that it was compiled from 207, 238, 239 and 249 Indian MGC's.  For interest

 

The 4 you quote would have been Company's (Coy's), a MGC Coy was attached to each Brigade in a Division, and came under the control of the Brigade commander. In early 1918 the structure changed and the Coy's were amalgamated into a Brigade and were then a Divisional asset controlled by the Divisional commander, normally numbered after the Division e.g. 18th Div's MGC Coy's became 18th Brigade MGC. To add confusion the combined MGC Coy's of the 18th Div of the British Army were also designated 18th Bde MGC.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/the-companies-and-battalions-of-the-machine-gun-corps/

 

Sam

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

  I've had a look at Pte Hartley who sadly, was only 18 when he died.  I am wondering if he also signed up at York - would that be necessary to get consecutive numbers.

 

Their MGC numbers were consecutive which means they joined the Corps at the same time.  Their KRRC numbers were not consecutive.  Hartley enlisted at Pontefract.  He died of wounds following the attack on Delville Wood while serving with 99 Coy MGC,

99 Brigade 2nd  Division.  The Company joined the Division in April 1916.  The Brigade included 1st Bn KRRC.  The war diary shows that in May 2 NCOs and 15 Privates from the KRRC were attached to the MG Company (together with men from other Battalions in the Brigade.   As the Medal Roll shows they first entered theatre with the KRRC it’s possible he was one of those, hopefully your KRRC thread will illuminate.  Having said that I will stick to transfer into the Corps as March 1916.

 

 The caveat is that trying to extrapolate service of a soldier from just one other number must be treated with caution.  Especially as Pte Ward ended up in Mesopotamia.

 

Ken

Edited 25 December , 2018 by kenf48

[david murdoch]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 18:26, Mespot18thDiv said:

Thank you.  It was thrilling to actually see my Grandfather's name on an official document after so long wandering in the wilderness!  It is also good to know I should  be looking for a Battalion not a Division.  I have seen that it was compiled from 207, 238, 239 and 249 Indian MGC's.  For interest, I am going to look at Pt Whiting, as they appear to have soldiered together.   Christmas duties are calling but I will be back.

The GSM rolls are very useful. The one roll has various different units, but usually in the case of infantry at least states which battalion. In the case of the MGC they are all together MGC (I), Motors or Cavalry but in their case usually states individual unit. By trawling the roll you can cherry pick out all members of each unit that were there. Same applies to the GSM roll for Afghanistan 1919! Building up a roster for each unit the numbers also indicate if they were there as a complete unit or just a company or section. In the case of my grandfather he was in Mesopotamia/Kurdistan through to end of 1919  with the armoured cars, but he did not receive a GSM - presumably as he was "south of the lines" at the qualifying times. The other useful thing is the medal cards with GSM usually have an address added which you don't normally see on other ranks cards. Once you have a list off the GSM roll you can cut back to Medal index cards and find out previous units - very useful for transfers into the MGC.

Having a look on the roll this morning looks like both 18th Bttn. MGC and 18th Bttn. Indian MGC both had a presence. 

Edited 26 December , 2018 by david murdoch

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 23:03, kenf48 said:

Welcome to the forum

 

The operations post war tended to involve ‘scratch’ units.  

 

General MacMunn’s Despatch with an Appendix of the units involved can be read here

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31813/supplement/2877

as you surmise there are two MG Companies of the 18th Indian Division listed. 

 

The KRRC did not raise any TF Battalions.  There are a couple of pals on here who have extensive records of the KRRC. If you amend your title you may attract their attention.

 

The MGC was formed October 1915 and 11543 was a relatively early transfer approximately beginning of March 1916, probably to France in April (6 weeks training).  It is possible he was posted to India, which was the staging post for Mesopotamia after his transfer but, 

11544 Hartley (Pontefract)  formerly KRRC was killed on 1 August 1916 on the Western Front.

 

This suggests he was posted to India/Mesopotamia later in the war but will need further research.

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the 'heads up' re the KRRC lead and the welcome.  

 

Re your post-war 'scratch units'  comment - sounds like being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Must have been mortifying knowing others were going home and you still had your 'neck on the line'.

 

The Gazette article and Supplement are very informative. Thank you. Quite a change of terrain from the desert, but with similar problems. Reads like something you would see on the television, in black and white.

 

I did as you suggested re the KRRC details and have had some very thorough feedback.  Game changing, is the fact that his KRRC number belongs to another ex North Eastern Railway employee, who died in France, 8 2 1916.  I am now questioning whether the KRRC detail is also wrong.  This would explain the lack of a link to a pre war Territorial unit.  (The owner of the number joined up 26 12 1914. my Grandad 1915).

 

PS:  I am replying in the 'Quote box', is this okay?

 

 

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 23:00, roughdiamond said:

 

The 4 you quote would have been Company's (Coy's), a MGC Coy was attached to each Brigade in a Division, and came under the control of the Brigade commander. In early 1918 the structure changed and the Coy's were amalgamated into a Brigade and were then a Divisional asset controlled by the Divisional commander, normally numbered after the Division e.g. 18th Div's MGC Coy's became 18th Brigade MGC. To add confusion the combined MGC Coy's of the 18th Div of the British Army were also designated 18th Bde MGC.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/the-companies-and-battalions-of-the-machine-gun-corps/

 

Sam

Thank you, I will bear it in mind. I am sure it will 'sink in' … eventually.

 

… Whist formations are under discussion, I have read articles on how the different 'Army units' relate to each other and are controlled.
What I would really like is a pictorial view, showing the different units sized according to their role and; how they all 'fit' within each other.   

 

Re:  the web site you kindly attached above.  I am familiar with the site above, having found it, gladly, on my own long, long trails.  I noticed that 207 is not listed, or not listed yet.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

 

 

PS:  I am replying in the 'Quote box', is this okay?

 

 

 

Sure it's OK, it's nice to read the gems I post a second time.

 

Seriously not a problem especially if you want to refer to, or clarify the previous post but it does take up bandwidth so best just to use the Reply box.

We're all fairly relaxed here though there are a couple of 'rules'.

 

I notice Hartley was not mentioned on the other thread don't know if that will help the experts (told you they were!).

 

One other mention in trying to build a picture, remember we're talking about Indian Army units and all that may imply in terms of organisation and supposed attitudes of Imperialism.  An attitude that got the British units in trouble more than once on the North West Frontier.  For the reasons you have given most of the units deployed post Armistice were well under strength.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mespot18thDiv]

On ‎25‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 15:54, david murdoch said:

The GSM rolls are very useful. The one roll has various different units, but usually in the case of infantry at least states which battalion. In the case of the MGC they are all together MGC (I), Motors or Cavalry but in their case usually states individual unit. By trawling the roll you can cherry pick out all members of each unit that were there. Same applies to the GSM roll for Afghanistan 1919! Building up a roster for each unit the numbers also indicate if they were there as a complete unit or just a company or section. In the case of my grandfather he was in Mesopotamia/Kurdistan through to end of 1919  with the armoured cars, but he did not receive a GSM - presumably as he was "south of the lines" at the qualifying times. The other useful thing is the medal cards with GSM usually have an address added which you don't normally see on other ranks cards. Once you have a list off the GSM roll you can cut back to Medal index cards and find out previous units - very useful for transfers into the MGC.

Having a look on the roll this morning looks like both 18th Bttn. MGC and 18th Bttn. Indian MGC both had a presence. 

I instinctively did pick out the 18th Bn - 207, 238, 239 and 18th Indian Bn MGC soldiers, following your introduction to the Roll. 

 

Don't seem to be that many, so I probably haven't got them all.  The 18th Indian Bn (the one that my Grandad was in) is the largest.  I had have a bit of practice since trawling the KRRC Roll, so will revisit.

 

Yes, I was surprised to find my Grandad's address … and thankful, as I then knew, after a great deal of looking, that I had definitely got the right person, especially as I could find no other documents. (His KRRC number has recently been revealed as belonging to a fellow ex-North Eastern Railway employee, in the KRRC - killed in action 1916.  My Grandfather joined 1915).  

I will do as you suggest and have a look at the MI Cards, sounds interesting.

 

One thing I have noticed, my Grandad's SN 11543, is much lower than the others - there is only 1; 10869, that is lower. 

 

 

[Mespot18thDiv]

Reply to Kenf48:  'One other mention in trying to build a picture, remember we're talking about Indian Army units and all that may imply in terms of organisation and supposed attitudes of Imperialism.  An attitude that got the British units in trouble more than once on the North West Frontier.  For the reasons you have given most of the units deployed post Armistice were well under strength.'   

 

Hmm, I think I might need some help with that background.  

 

One thing I can't get out of my mind, is the culture shock the UK lads must have experienced.  The journey there alone, must have been mind boggling; most not having been far from home/work, plus the exposure to several, amazingly different nationalities and their manner of dress/life style, no greenery, the excruciating heat, dust, lack of the necessity of life - water, the all consuming flies, all with … camels.  I bet my Grandad paused to think of home's fresh breezes straight off the coast.  

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, Mespot18thDiv said:

Reply to Kenf48:  'One other mention in trying to build a picture, remember we're talking about Indian Army units and all that may imply in terms of organisation and supposed attitudes of Imperialism.  An attitude that got the British units in trouble more than once on the North West Frontier.  For the reasons you have given most of the units deployed post Armistice were well under strength.'   

 

Hmm, I think I might need some help with that background.  

 

One thing I can't get out of my mind, is the culture shock the UK lads must have experienced.  The journey there alone, must have been mind boggling; most not having been far from home/work, plus the exposure to several, amazingly different nationalities and their manner of dress/life style, no greenery, the excruciating heat, dust, lack of the necessity of life - water, the all consuming flies, all with … camels.  I bet my Grandad paused to think of home's fresh breezes straight off the coast.  

I'm actually working off the same roll looking at medal entitlements for the Machine Gun Corps Motors (the armoured car units). Again  there are only small groups of men to a given unit. As been mentioned it was all a bit of a shambles as the units that had been there during the war were  beginning to demob  and were understrength then the insurgency broke out (same goes for the North West Frontier) There were a lot of unhappy people  waiting to get home. I noted in the 14th L.A.M.B war diary they received a batch of transfers from 18th MGC (the British one) to replace their "1915" men. 

[Mespot18thDiv]

I'm actually working off the same roll looking at medal entitlements for the Machine Gun Corps Motors (the armoured car units). Again  there are only small groups of men to a given unit. As been mentioned it was all a bit of a shambles as the units that had been there during the war were  beginning to demob  and were understrength then the insurgency broke out (same goes for the North West Frontier) There were a lot of unhappy people  waiting to get home. I noted in the 14th L.A.M.B war diary they received a batch of transfers from 18th MGC (the British one) to replace their "1915" men. 

 

I have a book Machine Gunner 1914 - 1918 - personal experiences by C E Crutchley.  There's an article about the 20th Battery Motor Machine Gun Service/13th LAMB in Mesopotamia by their C/O.  I will scan it for you if it of any interest.

[MBrockway]

I'm afraid the OP has totally misunderstood the advice given in her other topic elsewhere re the KRRC part of this man's record.

 

John Ward appears on the MGC's BWM&VM medal roll.

 

John Ward's medal index card gives prior service in the KRRC with service number 8377.  Same on the MGC BWM&VM medal roll.

 

This KRRC SN would *typically* indicate a pre-War Regular enlisting in approx 1907 into 1/, 2/, 3/ or 4/KRRC.

 

As the OP rejected this possibility on family history grounds, I then pointed out that it was quite common for the prefixes of KRRC service numbers to be omitted when a KRRC rifleman was transferred out of the regiment and then listed on another regiment's medal roll.

 

That could mean that as well as an all numeric service number of 8377, one would do well to remain open to the possibility that Ward's KRRC SN could also be any of A/8377. C/8377, R/8377 and Y/8377.

 

8377 falls well beyond the highest numbers in the A/xxxx and Y/xxxx ranges so A/8377 and Y/8377 can be ignored.

 

C/8377 would *typically* indicate a rifleman in 18/KRRC, but the highest SN in this block in the KRRC medal rolls is C/8133.  For John Ward's KRRC number to have been C/8377, rather than 8377, would require several hundred KRRC riflemen in this block to have ALL been transferred out of the regiment before going Overseas, This does not seem likely.

 

R/8377 was allocated to a completely different man, who is definitely not John Ward.  Bizarrely this man was also an LNER employee, but I cannot see how this is related.

 

Additional possibilities we did not mention in the other topic are the numeric prefixes 5/ and 6/ allocated to the Special Reserve, giving 5/8377 and 6/8377.  Enlistment into the KRRC's Special Reserve certainly might avoid the conflicts with John Ward's known family history the OP raised when told 8377 would usually mean a full-time pre-war Regular.

 

These statements by the OP ...

Quote

"Game changing, is the fact that his KRRC number belongs to another ex North Eastern Railway employee, who died in France, 8 2 1916."

 

"His KRRC number has recently been revealed as belonging to a fellow ex-North Eastern Railway employee, in the KRRC - killed in action 1916"

 

 

 ... are completely wrong: there is no evidence that the KRRC service number of 8377 was allocated to another man.  The man referred to had a KRRC service number of R/8377, which is a completely different and perfectly valid KRRC SN.

 

Without a service record, that was about as far as I could take John Ward's KRRC career, but my primary suggestion was that since Ward had the Kurdistan Clasp on the GSM, it is possible he served beyond the cut-off for his service record to have been kept by the MOD and that she should contact the Veterans Agency to pursue this.

 

Mark

 

 

Re the Veterans Agency etc. - see the bottom of this page on the Mother Site:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/how-to-find-a-soldiers-service-record/

 

[kenf48]

Mark,

 

As you will see it was my suggestion that the OP explore the KRRC and I've followed the other thread with interest.

 

He was posted to the MGC with two other men from the KRRC as shown in MGC Medal Rolls (possibly one other but not consecutively numbered).

Thomas Hartley 11544 D o W 1.8.1916 in France The medal Roll shows he was 1235 KRRC whereas SDGW gives his KRRC number as C/1251

The other man in the trio was Anthony Judge 11545/ KRRC 4618.

 

It was more a question as to whether or not there was a link.  At this time the  MGC was recruited from home service units of the relevant Command, suitable men were posted or 'volunteered' for the MGC, and as you are aware could have been in the Reserve unit for a number of reasons.  As Hartley's entry in SDGW shows there are anomalies in the recording of numbers on the Rolls. Soldiers effects using Craig's Calculator suggests enlistment May 1915.  He does have the 'C' prefix

 

Given the idiosyncratic way the MGC Rolls were compiled, in that they often showed the previous unit a soldier served with, rather than the first unit overseas (the heading is struck through in the Rolls) I do not believe any of these men went on active service with the KRRC.  I'm confident they were recruited to the MGC March, or maybe April 1916.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

I agree Ken - they smack of men in training with the KRRC in the UK who've been earmarked for Grantham.

 

C/8377 would be a good fit for John Ward for that scenario as several of the higher service numbers in the 18/KRRC block are listed as 23/KRRC, which was the Reserve bn formed on Boxing Day 1915 from 18/KRRC's depot companies when the Service bn concentrated with its division in Autumn 1915.  The personnel had a short spell in 19/KRRC, the original K4 Reserve bn, before they were again split out into their own separate bn.

 

As mentioned above though, the highest SN in this block in the KRRC medal rolls is C/8133.  For John Ward's KRRC number to have been C/8377, would require several hundred KRRC riflemen in this block to have ALL been transferred out of the regiment and NONE being posted as replenishments to KRRC battalions.  This just seems too unlikely .... but not impossible.

 

Mark