Kitcheners inspections of the Wessex Division in September / October 1914

[ddycher]

All

 

Have been trying to put some detail around Kitcheners inspections of the TF on Salisbury Plain before their embarkation for India in October 1914. I show him there twice :

 

1. On the 15th September I have ref's to him being on the Plain but no details.

2. On October 8th I have him at Perham Down for a short visit (apparently only half an hour or so) the day before troops left for Southampton.

 

Does anyone have more detail ? 

 

Regards

Dave

[Ron Clifton]

Both the first and second line Wessex Divisions (43rd and 45th) went to India, so the two visits may have been to different divisions?

 

Ron

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd hazard a guess that the October visit may have been to the 1st Wessex Division: as a for instance, the Hampshire Brigade (1st/4th, 1st/5th, 1st/6th.1st/7th Battalions) was at Bulford and embarked at Southampson on 9th October.

 

The 2nd Wessex Hampshire Brigade was in the Winchester area, so my money on the 8th October visit would be a last look prior to departure.

[Moonraker]

12 hours ago, ddycher said:

All

 

Have been trying to put some detail around Kitcheners inspections of the TF on Salisbury Plain before their embarkation for India in October 1914. I show him there twice :

 

1. On the 15th September I have ref's to him being on the Plain but no details.

2. On October 8th I have him at Perham Down for a short visit (apparently only half an hour or so) the day before troops left for Southampton.

 

Does anyone have more detail ? 

 

Regards

Dave

My notes show that Kitchener visited the Plain in 1914

 

on September 13 to Tidworth, Bulford, Lark Hill and Netheravon;

on September 28 and/or 29 to inspect the "New Armies" at Bulford and Perham Down;

on November 4 to inspect the newly-arrived First Canadian Contingent.

 

Troops at Codford paraded for him on October 18, but he did not arrive, having been recalled to London.

 

It may be that his September 13 visit was spread over several days' hence Dave's note of the 15th.

 

And possibly the October 8 and 18 dates were one and the same, with the digit "1" disappearing  or being added somewhere along the line.

 

With the 1st Wessex Division sailing on October 9, I wonder if anything very much would have been planned the day before by way of a formal parade or inspection; officers and men would have had plenty of other things to do.

 

(On August 7,  Lieutenant-Colonel C K Burnett, the commanding officer of the 18th Hussars (Queen Mary's Own),was  told that Queen Mary was coming to Tidworth the next day to bid farewell to her regiment before it departed for France - this whilst it was mobilising for war, including the collection of additional horses to bring it up to war strength! Burnett met the queen at Bulford Station and took her to Aliwal Barracks, where the regiment was drawn up for parade and inspection, with the district and brigade commanders also present. The regiment marched past "complete in every detail", together with its first-line transport, forming up again to charge to within a few yards of where Her Majesty stood, and with swords in the air gave her three resounding cheers.)

 

Checking The Times archive may confirm some of the dates, as that early in the war there was press coverage of such visits.

 

Checking likely unit histories (laborious, I know) may yield further information.

 

Moonraker

Edited 23 December , 2018 by Moonraker

[Steven Broomfield]

That snappily-titled and indispensible volume, History of the Hamsphire Territorial Force Association and War Records of Units, 1914-1919, contains this snippet in the section on the 1st/5th Battalion:

 

' ... (on the 8th October) the Wessex Division paraded for inspection by the late Lord Kitchener, but, unfortunately, some reason - it was said a sudden recall to a Cabinet meeting in London - prevented the Chief of Britain's Armies from taking the Battalion's last salute in England.'

 

So it would seem that 'something' was planned for the day before departure, but didn't happen.

[Moonraker]

Interesting, Steven, and in view of your two posts I shall be tweaking my notes a little.

 

Dave, what makes you think he was at Perham Down? He could have been, of course, and Steven's snippet does not preclude this, it merely saying that he was unable to take the salute.

 

And it looks as I may have been correct in surmising: "and possibly the October 8 and 18 dates were one and the same, with the digit "1" disappearing  or being added somewhere along the line".

 

Incidentally, I have the Hampshire Battalions camped at Bustard, rather than Bulford.

 

Moonraker

 

 

[ddycher]

All

 

Thanks for your feedback on this.

 

Ron - both dates above are for the 43rd / 1st Wessex. Don't have any detail on inspections before the 2nd Wessex left.

 

From my ref's I have Kitchener first inspecting all Bde's of the Wessex Division on the 15th September. This after Gen. Donald had requested the Bn's to volunteer for Imperial Service on the 3rd and the men had been split between Imperial Service and Home Service Bn's on the 5th. Given Moonrakers date of the 13th. I am going to recheck this.

 

Checking again the 28th I agree with Moonraker. The Devon & Cornwall Bde / Wessex Division was inspected by the King on Salisbury Plain on this date. The King visited the Salisbury Plain training centre where he was received by Gen. Pitcairn Campbell. With him was Queen Mary and the Princess Royal. He was accompanied by Lord Kitchener and Earl Fortescue. He is known to have visited Bulford, Perham Down and Tidworth (where he inspected the Wessex Division ). "At Perham Down the King mounted his charger and the units marched past the saluting base in formation whilst the Queen and Princess Mary looked on from a motor car". The Devon and Cornwall Bde was still at Perham Down on this date. They had been under orders to move but these were cancelled on the 24th when it was confirmed they were going to India. Embarkation leave starting on the 25th as the original date for embarkation had been set for the 1st. Men were hurried back from embarkation leave to be there for the King's inspection. This has always intrigued me. As the King inspected understrength Bn's in the midst of embarkation leave. I had thought, probably wrongly, that Perham Down was taken over by the Canadians on being vacated by the TF. Home Service men left 4 & 5th October and Imperial Service men on the morning of the 9th.

 

As to the 8th October : The 4th Devons ref I have on file states "we smartened up and paraded in full kit, the band taking rifles. He came about 11o'clock and inspected us the same as he did before. He said he was very pleased with the general bearing of the men and he delivered a message from the King saying that His Majesty was much indebted to us for taking up duties in India. We cheered him off again at half past eleven and returned to camp".

 

Steven - Interesting that he didn't make it to the Hants. It seems he was definitely there. I have passing ref's also for the 5th Devons having been inspected before leaving but no detail. Nothing as yet on the 6th Devons. I wonder what made him cut short the day ?

 

So I have him inspecting the Wessex 3x before departure.

 

Regards

Dave 

[Moonraker]

Dave, that's useful, thanks. I bet the men were really fed up with with being recalled from embarkation leave, having to smarten their kit and hang around for hours just so the King could wish them well.

 

No, the Canadians were never at Perham Down. Among the units there later in 1914 were the 9th Cheshire, 8th Gloucestershire, 9th & 10th Royal Warwickshire, 9th Welsh, 6th Wiltshire and 10th Worcestershire.

 

 

Previously |'ve read the date as 29/9/14, but I now think it's a case of a squashed "8". Certainly the Royal Visit was on the 28th, the Royal Party returning to Aldershot at 1800 that day.

 

Moonraker

[ddycher]

Thanks Moonraker.

 

Great photo.

 

Nothing more my side as yet. Looking through ref's for Wessex Division HQ at Tidworth to see if I can find more. Will post if I do.

 

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Moonraker

 

I have a bit of a breakthrough in my research finding that the 2/1 HQ Coy, Wessex Div'l Train was still at Codford as late as May 1915. Not a camp I know much about. Which troops was Kitchener planning to inspect at the time. What I am chasing is that 1/1 Wessex Div'l Train was supporting the arriving Canadians in and around Bulford and the 2/1 Train at Codford and Woodcock area.

 

Any pointers appreciated.

 

Regards

Dave

[Gareth Davies]

It was the 25th and 26th Divs that first went to Codford and the latter contained the 79th Bde which was made up of Regiments from Wessex.  

[ddycher]

Making more sense Gareth. The forming of the 10th Devons at the time ties in nicely. Nucleas was formed at Exeter in September and they were on the plain by 26th. Did not know it was at Codford, I show the Devons at Stockton but had not looked at the other Wessex units. Will dig in again for the September ~ November period.

 

The 2/1 Wessex Div'l Train was formed at the end of October and then made up the Wylye District ASC taking over from the 26th Div'l Train (I think). They were HQ at the Codford Supply Depot with the ASC Office then at Market Place Warminster at least for May ~ September 1915.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Regards

Dave

Edited 1 January , 2019 by ddycher

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, ddycher said:

.. I have a bit of a breakthrough in my research finding that the 2/1 HQ Coy, Wessex Div'l Train was still at Codford as late as May 1915. Not a camp I know much about. Which troops was Kitchener planning to inspect at the time. What I am chasing is that 1/1 Wessex Div'l Train was supporting the arriving Canadians in and around Bulford and the 2/1 Train at Codford and Woodcock area...

 

1 hour ago, ddycher said:

... The forming of the 10th Devons at the time ties in nicely. Nucleas was formed at Exeter in September and they were on the plain by 26th. Did not know it was at Codford, I show the Devons at Stockton but had not looked at the other Wessex units. Will dig in again for the September ~ November period.

 

The 2/1 Wessex Div'l Train was formed at the end of October and then made up the Wylye District ASC taking over from the 26th Div'l Train (I think). They were HQ at the Codford Supply Depot with the ASC Office then at Market Place Warminster at least for May ~ September 1915.

Any one division would be spread over a number of camps. (One mistake some family researchers make is learning that the xxth Division - probably its CO and staff - were based at a certain camp and assuming that their great granddad - a member of that division - was as well, when he might have been camped miles away.)

 

I don't have a note about which troops at Codford expected to be inspected by Kitchener - presumably most of them. There in September 1914 were the

 

10th Black Watch: October 1914 (so might have been there in September)
8th Border Regiment: autumn–November 1914
11th Cameronians (Scottish Rifles): autumn 1914
10th Cheshire Regiment: end August–early winter 1914
11th Cheshire Regiment: autumn 1914
8th Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry: autumn 1914
8th East Lancashire Regiment: September–November 1914
9th Gloucestershire Regiment: September–November 1914
10th Gloucestershire Regiment: autumn 1914 and April–August 1915?
7th King's Shropshire Light Infantry: September 26–November 1914
11th Lancashire Fusiliers:September–December 31, 1914
8th & 9th Loyal North Lancashires: autumn 1914
8th Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (Pioneers): September–October 1914
7th Queen's Own (Royal West Kents): May–late July 1915
7th Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's): October–November 1914
8th Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's): October–November 1914     
8th Royal Lancaster Regiment (King's Own): late October–November 1914
10th Royal Welsh Fusiliers: September–November 1914

 

Some of these may have been elsewhere in the Wylye Valley. The only unit I have at Stockton is indeed the 10th Devonshire Regiment, from September 16 into October. (I have several anecdotes about its time there, but to recount them would distract from the thread.)

 

Stockton camp was number 6 of 12 numbered tented camps in the Wylye Valley in late 1914; a separate sequence of 1 to 15 was used for the later, hutted camps at Codford. At Sherrington were the 7th Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry: late September–November 11, 1914; 7th Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh's): October–November 15, 1914; and 11th Worcestershire Regiment: autumn 1914.

 

The reference to "Woodcock" puzzles me - I can't relate that to any camp-site in the locality.

 

Moonraker

 

[Steven Broomfield]

According to Orders of Battle, Part 3A, units of the 26th Division were billeted across southern England until the period 26th April - 8th May 1915, during which period the whole division was concentrated in huts between Sutton Veney and Longbridge Deverill (near Warminster). Prior to that the 79th Brigade is reported as being in Bath, Marlborough, Hungerford and Basingstoke.

[ddycher]

Moonraker 

 

It's a mistake I've made myself a number of times. Even more so when I step outside of a Bn and start looking at Bde's and Divisions like I'm doing here. Have reset myself a number of times in recent weeks.

 

Right now I am trying to pull together movements of the Wessex Div'l Train to try to better understand the movements of the Wessex Reserve Bde. The Reserve Bde's, Originally Reserve Groups of the Wessex Division were formed on Salisbury Plain from April 1915. My current ref's show the Wessex Div'l Train active in the Wylye Valley from May. What they were doing from the departure of the 2nd Wessex Division remains unclear for me.

 

Clear, however, that if I am going to make any sense of this I need to get a much better understanding of the various camps and how the various districts broke down. eg the Wylye Valley district reorganisation in 1916. I am currently looking at the hunted camps at Codford April ~ October 1915 as I have conflicting ref's there vs what was happening at Whitchurch Down.

 

Wrt the Woodcock ref : the 2/1st Devon and Cornwall Bde Coy, Wessex Div’l Train were in camp at Woodcock, Warminster from May 1915 ~ TBD. Know nothing more than that at present. See below :

 

.

 

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Steven

 

Thanks for this.

 

As you can probably see I am trying to understand how the 79th Bde (ref from Gareth above) vs Wessex Reserve's were serviced from a supply standpoint. See above. Known that the 2nd Wessex Div'l Train covered Sutton Veny and Longbridge Deverill so looking more and more probable this is my connection. The Wessex Reserve Groups were, I think, at Whitchurch Down. That said the 79th Bde move to Bath and the Wessex Reserve's to Bournemouth later in October/November are not easy to separate.

 

Regards

Dave

[Gareth Davies]

There is a Woodcock Road in Warminster. The main entrance to  Battlesbury Barracks is on Woodcock Road.

[ddycher]

Thanks Gareth

 

Hadn’t realized before this there was not a regular camp at Woodcock. 

 

Again the lack of local knowledge. 

 

Regards

Dave

Edited 3 January , 2019 by ddycher

[ddycher]

All

 

I'm going to combine my current threads on Salisbury Plain in ‘14/15 here.

 

See also :

 

 

regards

Dave

 

Edited 3 January , 2019 by ddycher

[Moonraker]

After 22 years of research, I'd never realised that the camp near Warminster Station was called Woodcock! (Thank, Gareth.)  I suspect, though, that this was not an official title. But it does seem a logical name, assuming that there was a Woodcock Road or, at least, an eponymous locality, in the early 20th century! My notes reveal that "Fair Field in Warminster was taken over in 1914 for a military rail depot. 'North' and 'South' camps provided huts for upwards of 1,400 men".

 

Fairfield Road is to the east of Woodcock Road and slightly closer to the station.

 

The Warminster Journal printed several stories of wrong-doing there. Three men of the Royal Engineers in Warminster were charged in January 1915 with an offence against Hilda Gray, who was under the age of 16. Sergeant-Major Frank Gilbert told the court that when sleeping at the Drill Hall he heard a scuffle and a girl asking "How many more?"

 

The House of Commons was told how an officer had asked a ganger (labourers' foreman) at Warminster (not necessarily  at Fairfield or Woodcock roads)  how many men he had: 'fifty-five' was the reply, but only thirty-one could be found.

 

In October 1915 William Cullimore was find £3 for selling 60lb of sausages unfit for human consumption to the 3rd Line Depot, Wessex Divisional Train, Warminster. The magistrates noted that this was the first case of its kind to be brought before them. One witness suggested that the depot had stored the sausages too close together and they might have "sweated". (Warminster Journal, October 22, 1915, p8)

 

Moonraker

 

 

 

Edited 2 January , 2019 by Moonraker

[ddycher]

Back to Kitchener on the Plain.

 

Wyrall in his history of the DCLI places Kitchener inspecting the 4th DCLI on the 17th September but I think this is an error as he also states the King's inspection was on the 25th and them embarking on 4th October. Matthews in his history of the 5th DCLI does not mention either inspections.

 

regards

Dave 

Edited 3 January , 2019 by ddycher

[ddycher]

Both

 

Woodcock Camp may have been more substantial than we think. Now known to have been a satellite of the ASC Camp at Codford St. Peter. The 2/1st Devon and Cornwall Bde Coy was there from January 1915 and was still there when the TF (ASC) was re-organized in June 1916 (the D&C Bde Coy becoming 502 Company).

 

Regards

Dave

Edited 3 January , 2019 by ddycher

[ddycher]

According to local papers Kitchener was called away on the 8th October. I believe he did his morning itinerary and things were suspended at lunchtime. See below :

 

 

[Moonraker]

That would have been the George Hotel in Amesbury, much favoured by officers based locally. A small museum  downstairs has an excellent display of early aviation photographs of before and up to the end of the First World War.

 

Moonraker
 

[Moonraker]

Just found this brief reference in my notes: "There had been concern in Warminster in early 1915 after a Royal Engineers camp was built across a right of way in Fair Field (known also as the Sheep Fair) close to the station. Townsfolk found this inconvenient, though it was pointed out that many people were suffering much inconvenience at the time."

 

Moonraker