Errol Martyn Posted 21 December , 2018 Share Posted 21 December , 2018 This is the right hand sleeve of a WRAF Assistant Administrator. Photograph probably taken between August 1918 and late 1919. Can anyone please tell my what the four chevrons indicate.TIA, Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 21 December , 2018 Share Posted 21 December , 2018 They signify that the wearer has served overseas: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-an-overseas-service-chevron/ Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 21 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2018 Dave, Not sure that this is the answer. The lady concerned didn't serve for anything like the four years required for four chevrons. I note also that there is no mention of the WRAF in the link. Cheers, Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 21 December , 2018 Share Posted 21 December , 2018 4 hours ago, Errol Martyn said: Dave, Not sure that this is the answer. The lady concerned didn't serve for anything like the four years required for four chevrons. I note also that there is no mention of the WRAF in the link. Cheers, Errol Hi Errol I would refer you to the Osprey book Men-at-Arms No.351 'British Air Forces 1914-1918(2) by Andrew Cormack, which notes, on page 12, that: "Initially the RAF continued the practice of wearing small, embroidered service chevrons, points upwards, on the lower right sleeve of jackets to denote service overseas or on ships since the start of the war." And page 19, tat "..the WRAF was permitted to wear the War Service chevrons introduced by AMWO 1 of January 1919." As we don't know who the individual is I can't say if she was entitled to them or not. If she had served in the previous women's service organisations prior to the formation of the WRAF, then she would be entitled. If you are saying she only served in the WRAF (and no other military organisation before) from August 1918 to the end of 1919 then she would not be entitled. But these are War Service Chevrons that you have shown us! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 22 December , 2018 Share Posted 22 December , 2018 (edited) Can you post the entire picture please? You refer to the wearer as a lady, but that appears to be the standard mans 1918 pattern RAF officer uniform in khaki. If it is indeed a woman wearing it, I suspect she is wearing the uniform of a relative or similar and that might explain the discrepancy. Otherwise as stated above, those are Overseas Service Chevrons: Edited 22 December , 2018 by Andrew Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 25 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2019 Mike, " But these are War Service Chevrons that you have shown us! " Service in Germany during the Army of Occupation would not qualify as 'War Service'? (I don't know for certain if the lady did so serve). Cheers, Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 28 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2019 Andrew, Full photo herewith. The lady wore only the khaki uniform during her service, having obtained permission from the Air Ministry to continue doing so once the blue uniform was introduced. She wears 'New Zealand' on her shoulders. Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 28 January , 2019 Share Posted 28 January , 2019 15 minutes ago, Errol Martyn said: Full photo herewith. The lady wore only the khaki uniform during her service, having obtained permission from the Air Ministry to continue doing so once the blue uniform was introduced. She wears 'New Zealand' on her shoulders. I think that confirms my earlier suggestion - it's is mans jacket. Note how even though it buttons as a mans jacket would she has had to fold it over the "wrong" way without doing the buttons up properly to try and make it a better fit, and even then the loose fit of the belted section belies that something is not right. Now you just need to find who the appropriate RAF Lieutenant with about 3-4 years post-1914 overseas service could have been who lent the tunic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 28 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2019 Andrew, I think you are in error. The lady in question records in her memoir the purchasing of her uniform, so no need to have borrowed one. Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 28 January , 2019 Share Posted 28 January , 2019 Fascinating thoughts. Any chance of a name for said lady from NZ? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 28 January , 2019 Share Posted 28 January , 2019 (edited) Errol I think that you will find that Andrew's summation is correct. She may well have purchased her own uniform but not the one that she is wearing. Dave Edited 28 January , 2019 by HERITAGE PLUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 28 January , 2019 Share Posted 28 January , 2019 2 hours ago, HERITAGE PLUS said: Errol I think that you will find that Andrew's summation is correct. She may well have purchased her own uniform but not the one that she is wearing. Dave Thanks Dave. As I said, clearly the mans pattern, not the womans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 28 January , 2019 Share Posted 28 January , 2019 2 hours ago, Andrew Upton said: Thanks Dave. As I said, clearly the mans pattern, not the womans. I'll third that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 28 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2019 9 hours ago, George Rayner said: Fascinating thoughts. Any chance of a name for said lady from NZ? George George, I'm not at liberty to disclose it at present. Cheers, Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 28 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2019 Gents, The men's pattern appears to have been used initially for WRAF khaki uniform issue. See attached which shows 'buttoned-wrong-side' examples. (From page 49 of Women in AIr Force Blue by Escott.) Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 29 January , 2019 Share Posted 29 January , 2019 (edited) On 28/01/2019 at 09:46, Errol Martyn said: Andrew, I think you are in error. The lady in question records in her memoir the purchasing of her uniform, so no need to have borrowed one. Errol More problematically for you, the OS chevrons (which is what they indisputably are) shown are for a minimum of 36 months overseas service; and up to 47 months. The last qualifying date for overseas chevrons was May 1st 1920. The NZ reference is deeply curious too, as the NZ Air Force was only formed as an independent force in 1923. Prior to that NZ personnel were simply RNAS/ RFC then RAF, and not distinctly badged*. Cheers, GT. *But you know that... Edited 29 January , 2019 by Grovetown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 29 January , 2019 Share Posted 29 January , 2019 Hi GT, The wearing of commonwealth nationality titles on RFC/RAF uniforms was done - especially with Canadians. Australians had their own distinctive uniform design and didn't use British patterns. So you are correct about the formation of the independant NZ Air Force but prior to that you could identify as an example a NZ or Canadian in the RFC/RAF a by the shoulder tab (which seems to have been optional and not a mandatory uniform insignia) based on your enlistment country origin and wear a shoulder title indicating that attachment to the UK parent service. I hope that makes sense....Example here on a picture of Billy Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 30 January , 2019 Share Posted 30 January , 2019 That's an interesting snippet - thanks Scott. Doesn't solve the OP's problem of his subject apparently having 18 months or so service, while wearing OS chevrons displaying three to four years' worth. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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