Sgt. Albert White VC - Location of Arrow Trench and Devil's Trench at Monchy

[Fattyowls]

I've met a relative of Albert's at the over 75's group where I periodically help out (we have competitions; I do a talk and the last one to fall asleep wins a slice of swiss roll). I am prepariing a little talk about Albert and wonder if anyone has a photo of the area where he was killed winning his VC on 19th May 1917. The descriptions state he was part of an attack by 2nd SWB on the junction of Arrow Trench with Devil's trench about half a mile north east of Monchy-le-Preux. I've been across the area without photographing it and found various photos of it on the forum; can anyone identify the area of the 2nd SWB from them, or alternatively let me have an original?

 

Pete.

 

P.S. From searching the forum I think I spotted that Mark has also met another branch of Albert's family. Small world. @Mark Hone

[Roger H]

Typically, on the edge of two maps, both dated July 1917 but for some strange reason they don't seem to match up and neither can I see a junction of the two trenches.  Hopefully somebody better than me will be along shortly.

 

Roger

 

Sorry, the bottom map would have been better posted on the top!!

 

Edited 20 December , 2018 by Roger H

[Fattyowls]

Thanks Roger; somebody with more local knowledge may be along to solve the mystery but I refuse to believe that they will be better than you matey.

 

Pete.

[jay dubaya]

 

Note that the Arrow Trench that runs on the east side of Arrow Head Copse has become Shaft Alley on the above map and the new Arrow Trench runs parallelish to Devils Trench, I'll look through some notes later, I may have a better image.

Edited 20 December , 2018 by jay dubaya

[Roger H]

11 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

Thanks Roger; somebody with more local knowledge may be along to solve the mystery but I refuse to believe that they will be better than you matey.

 

Pete.

Cheers Pete! I can't see any join on the map above either!

[Fattyowls]

Thank you gentlemen; I think what I'm after is a photo of the area as it is today ideally taken from the sunken lane running north east out of Monchy looking north east.

 

It looks to my untutored eye as if the attack was to pinch out the small salient in Devil's trench either side of the lane where it is closest to Arrow Trench. You can see why they might see it as a junction. White came through the attack through the burning bushes at Scimitar Hill at Sulva Bay, survived going over the top attacking towards Y Ravine at Beaumont Hamel on 1st July 1916 and was then killed as the Arras offensive wound down. From what I have read he had a sense of foreboding going back from leave in early 1917, which is understandable.

 

Pete.

[clk]

Hi Pete,

 

33 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

I think what I'm after is a photo of the area as it is today ideally taken from the sunken lane running north east out of Monchy looking north east.

 

Could you use Google Earth?

 

Regards

Chris

[jay dubaya]

I'd agree with the junction being the closest that the two trenches came at the sunken road, all the maps I have access too show the same with no junction as such but the short distance of the sunken road. I'd agree with Chris and have a quick wander down the road via google street view, in the meantime here's an overlay of the trenches.

 

Jon

[Fattyowls]

46 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Pete,

 

 

Could you use Google Earth?

 

Regards

Chris

 

Now that I know where I'm looking I sure can Chris; good suggestion. Jon and Roger, thanks for doing the homing in for me; I'll have another look through the previous posts of photos from the area to see if there is something high def.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. Chris, I've always been meaning to ask but, is your avatar David Jones VC by any chance? If it isn't it's someone who looks remarkably like him. 

 

 

Image courtesy of Google Earth.

 

 

[clk]

Hi Pete,

 

3 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

Chris, I've always been meaning to ask but, is your avatar David Jones VC by any chance?

 

No. It's currently this chap Albert Lodder MiD - from a photo taken c1906.

 

Regards

Chris

[Fattyowls]

Chums, just to let you know that I did the talk to the over 75's and nobody fell asleep. I put together a document for Kathy who is Albert's grand or grand-grand-niece using the maps too. Many thanks again.

 

Pete.

Edited 25 January , 2019 by Fattyowls

[Roger H]

Glad it went well!

[Fattyowls]

Thanks Roger, even I can't make a story that includes juvenile delinquency (before it had been invented admittedly), White Star Line liners, Scimitar Hill at Sulva, Y Ravine at Beaumont Hamel on the 1st July 1916 and Monchy-le-Preux dull. White's story is remarkable. All we need now is for the VC itself to be found in a family attic........

 

Pete.

[BillyH]

1 hour ago, Fattyowls said:

Chums, just to let you know that I did the talk to the over 75's and nobody fell asleep. 

 

Must have been a M&S Swiss Roll?    

 

BillyH.

[Fattyowls]

28 minutes ago, BillyH said:

 

Must have been a M&S Swiss Roll?    

 

BillyH.

 

Actually there was a cornucop cernewco cornnucopia load of fab home made cakes today, I didn't partake because my body is a temple (it used to be a kebab shop). Van den Hauwe is doing dry January and says he's feeling the benefit. We could do with him out on the pitch tomorrow at Millwall.....

 

The talks often give rise to other interesting questions. One of the over 75's lads remembers a GP called Connolly who had the VC and who did free consultations at Brougham Terrace before the NHS, and had a surgery on Juvenal St just off Scotty Road in the late 40's. I thought it rang a bell and looked up the Merseyside Connolly VC only to find it was won during the Indian Mutiny and the recipient, William Connolly died in 1891. A mystery.......

 

Pete.

Edited 25 January , 2019 by Fattyowls

[Uncle George]

36 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

 

Actually there was a cornucop cernewco cornnucopia load of fab home made cakes today, I didn't partake because my body is a temple (it used to be a kebab shop). Van den Hauwe is doing dry January and says he's feeling the benefit. We could do with him out on the pitch tomorrow at Millwall.....

 

The talks often give rise to other interesting questions. One of the over 75's lads remembers a GP called Connolly who had the VC and who did free consultations at Brougham Terrace before the NHS, and had a surgery on Juvenal St just off Scotty Road in the late 40's. I thought it rang a bell and looked up the Merseyside Connolly VC only to find it was won during the Indian Mutiny and the recipient, William Connolly died in 1891. A mystery.......

 

Pete.

 

Maybe it’s this chap (the VC being one of those exaggerations that the frailties of memory throw up sometimes):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/journey/scouse/people/connolly.shtml

 

Edited 25 January , 2019 by Uncle George

[Fattyowls]

1 hour ago, Uncle George said:

Maybe it’s this chap (the VC being one of those exaggerations that the frailties of memory throw up sometimes):

 

That is undoubtedly the man, thank you UG. Juvenal St is the clincher, but as you say the VC is a trick of the memory. The gang are very sharp and particularly good on 'the olden days'. White VC lived on Arlington Street in Kirkdale, and the lads were arguing about the name of the pub on the corner. They are a great group and always asking interesting questions. St Polycarp is the latest; Rose who asked used to be a hospital matron of the old school and still has the authority - if she told me to get better immediately I wouldn't dare argue.

 

I'll be back in next Friday to report on where Mildred's dad lost his foot (probably in the wood just below the Leipzig Salient at Thiepval) so I'll add Connolly to the list.

 

Pete.

[Don Regiano]

On 25/01/2019 at 18:17, Fattyowls said:

 

 

I'll be back in next Friday to report on where Mildred's dad lost his foot (probably in the wood just below the Leipzig Salient at Thiepval) so I'll add Connolly to the list.

 

 

 

Pete.

 

If you have a more precise location, I'll have a look for it when I'm over there next week.

 

Reg

 

[Fattyowls]

4 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

 

Pete.

 

If you have a more precise location, I'll have a look for it when I'm over there next week.

 

Reg

 

 

You are a prince amongst men Reg, a diamond geezer.....

[Fattyowls]

On 25/01/2019 at 16:53, Uncle George said:

Maybe it’s this chap

 

Just an update UG; I went in to talk to the gang this morning about Connolly VC (Indian Mutiny) and Connolly MD (Italy WW2). It turns out that the latter had been the GP for half of the attendees, and had delivered several of their children. He was a revered figure as the article suggested. I made a note of the web address you found and Ken is going to use it to tell the lads at the Legion. Thanks again.

 

Pete

Edited 25 February , 2019 by Fattyowls

[Uncle George]

Thanks for the update Pete. These stories are I think just marvellous - local history, family history, military history. Marvellous.

[Teulog]

Hello all,

Just a quick line regarding Albert White VC. As a kid my mum also lived in Arlington Street but was bombed out and moved to Lemon Street.

Years later when married she moved to Teulon Street. Albert White was born at 62 Teulon Street. I was also born at 62 Teulon Street in 1962.

I know this is sounding like huge lie but i have a web site teulonstreet.com which backs me up.

I will have a look later and try and get the pub name for Arlington St / Stanley Road.

Cheers

Phil D

[Fattyowls]

5 hours ago, Teulog said:

Hello all,

Just a quick line regarding Albert White VC. As a kid my mum also lived in Arlington Street but was bombed out and moved to Lemon Street.

Years later when married she moved to Teulon Street. Albert White was born at 62 Teulon Street. I was also born at 62 Teulon Street in 1962.

I know this is sounding like huge lie but i have a web site teulonstreet.com which backs me up.

I will have a look later and try and get the pub name for Arlington St / Stanley Road.

Cheers

Phil D

 

Hi Phil and welcome to the forum. I looked at your website when I was researching Albert for Cathy who is part of the family but didn't go any further down than the map. I've just had a scroll through and it is wonderful; it reminds me of the TV programme 'The Secret History of our Streets'. My mum's family lived a few hundred yards away and Thomas George Jones was my father's footballing hero so I had to tear myself away to finish the post. It is a labour of love and so evocative.

 

And not a word of a lie either......

 

Pete.

 

P.S. I've just read the bit about Hitler bombing the chippy - priceless.

[Teulog]

Hi Pete

It was great finding out about Albert White VC and the connection to our house. I was telling everyone. I will try and find what i can on where he fell ( maps ) although i am only used to scanning local OS maps.

 

My granddads brother was killed in March 1918 and is listed as being 28 ( CWGC ), when really he was 18...Joined up too young i imagine. Lived in Latham St.  Listed as being a 'driver' although this means a driver of horses. I believe he took a direct hit from a shell while on a horse....John Dewhurst 25526

 

Phil D

 

 

 

[Fattyowls]

Phil, have a look at the top of this thread for where Albert was lost; I think I can pinpoint the spot to within yards using the expertise and assistance of the forum. I'd have more difficulty finding the spot where your birthplace stood.

 

As for your great uncle John, he was a Royal Field Artillery driver so would have ridden the horse team probably pulling one of the guns. My maternal grandfather was also a driver and from Fountains Street (but further down towards Stanley Road). The date of death is significant as that was the first day of operation Michael; the first of the great German spring offensives. Chances are he was killed a long way from where his memorial is at Pozieres - the front lines were 30 or so miles to the east at the time. The memorial is imposing, I've been there a few times.

 

Pete.