Can anyone identify this crest and tie?

[Madmeg]

Hi all,

Inspired by all the help I have had so far, I'm posting this in the hope that someone may have some ideas. As you can see it is not an operational uniform- looks more like an old school uniform but I'm no good with whether any regiments had sporting blazers? I've tried searching for a likeness but I'm obviously not hitting the right combination of search terms

Taken c 1917, probably in Bournemouth but potentially at Napsbury, there are some pictures of what may be the same young man with SWB (South Wales Borderers?) lapel badges- he has the "new" style army jacket in this 2nd picture with no cuff markings and I'm struggling to see how many buttons there are on his epaulettes (he is an officer though- probably 2nd Lt or Lt).

Hope the hive mind can help.

 

[Steven Broomfield]

Looks more like a school uniform to me. Many (most?) regiments would have a blazer badge, but these generally would be a representation of the regimental badge in embroidery, often with gold wire/bullion - quite nice pieces of work. I just get the impression this is a school badge.

[MBrockway]

Looks like the coat of arms of Bedford School to me, but I have only seen the eagle on its own without the shield as the blazer badge.

 

It’s not the Bedford School rowing blazer as that has edging in white ribbon.

 

Mark

Edited 18 December , 2018 by MBrockway

[Ron Clifton]

It is Bedford School. Wikipedia has a blue and white image of it.

 

Ron

Edited 18 December , 2018 by Ron Clifton

[MBrockway]

 

The current school blazer badge uses only the eagle, as was the case in the 1970s and 1980s when I used to regularly encounter Bedford School on the rowing regatta circuit.

 

This is probably an Old Bedfordian variant.

 

Do you have a name for the chap in your photo?

 

Mark

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 hours ago, Madmeg said:

there are some pictures of what may be the same young man with SWB (South Wales Borderers?) lapel badges-

 

Although he could well have served in the South Wales Borderers, an SWB lapel badge usually means 'Silver War Badge', a badge issued to soldiers discharged from the armed services because of injuries or illness. There would be a reference to the issue of the badge on his MIC.

[Madmeg]

10 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

The current school blazer badge uses only the eagle, as was the case in the 1970s and 1980s when I used to regularly encounter Bedford School on the rowing regatta circuit.

 

This is probably an Old Bedfordian variant.

 

Do you have a name for the chap in your photo?

 

Mark

 

"Ginger" - :-D. My grandmother was really BAD about names - never use a name where a nickname will do ! Pretty sure he is the same chap as in the other photos- and it is definitely NOT a Silver war badge in the other photos- he is in uniform in those and I am reasonably sure that I am reading the letters SWB (the WB are clear the S less so) , I've checked sources and can only get the South Wales to fit the badge. I was a bit confused at first because the one I was looking at was back to front- but then realised the lapel badges face both ways.

He was out of action in the spring of 1917 (presumably injured). As he is in the Blazer perhaps he was demobbed? However, the photo is taken outside some sort of facility housing recovering officers. 

The uniform he is wearing has no rank markings on the cuff- as he's in England I wonder if he only joined up in 1917? He looks pretty young

 

Edited 19 December , 2018 by Madmeg

[MBrockway]

5 hours ago, Madmeg said:

"Ginger" - :-D. My grandmother was really BAD about names - never use a name where a nickname will do ! Pretty sure he is the same chap as in the other photos- and it is definitely NOT a Silver war badge in the other photos- he is in uniform in those and I am reasonably sure that I am reading the letters SWB (the WB are clear the S less so) , I've checked sources and can only get the South Wales to fit the badge. I was a bit confused at first because the one I was looking at was back to front- but then realised the lapel badges face both ways.

He was out of action in the spring of 1917 (presumably injured). As he is in the Blazer perhaps he was demobbed? However, the photo is taken outside some sort of facility housing recovering officers. 

The uniform he is wearing has no rank markings on the cuff- as he's in England I wonder if he only joined up in 1917? He looks pretty young

 

 

It would be a lot easier to help you with these questions were you to post some of the pictures you describe.

 

Likewise there may be clues for us in the uncropped version of this blazer photo.

 

[Madmeg]

8 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

It would be a lot easier to help you with these questions were you to post some of the pictures you describe.

 

Likewise there may be clues for us in the uncropped version of this blazer photo.

 

Minimal bandwidth- I have to keep everything small and I need to edit them down to an emailable size, all takes time. The blazer photo- he's on his own in the picture (although there is a picture of my grandfather in uniform probably taken at the same time) . I have not yet identified the building but it is some sort of facility for injured officers. I'll see what I can manage.

[Madmeg]

ok you asked for it.  :-). I have an album full of these plus hundreds of loose photos (mostly later than WW1) and some I have to try and copy from negatives as the original prints have faded so badly.

 

Group photo at the "facility" where a number of these men were staying- my grandfather is the balding RFC observer top left. Only lable is "Jimmy" next to my grandfather (William James Pearson) but from context after Feb 1917 and before June 1917. About 1 inches by 2 inches.

Young man second from left in front row may be "Brack" - he looks similar but "Brack" in other pictures is pilot RFC - and this chap is in a different uniform- can't see any RFC wings. "Brack" is also proving difficult- there is a JE (also in records as GE but appears to be the same man) Brack , a Canadian cadet- but he washed out almost immediately so never got to be a pilot so far as I can make out.

The strange looking architectural feature on the far right (looks like an ornate fireplace- there is another one on the far left) seem to be theatrical set pieces in other photos.

The three white blobs are nurses of some kind I think.

I only just noticed when posting (the original is so tiny it is easier to make out on the digital copy) that all the men appear to have some sort of armband on the left sleeve- don't know what this would be?

 

"Ginger" on a group picnic somewhere- probably in Dorset or Hampshire. None of these set of pictures has any sort of label but from the context a group of ladies who worked worked with (or were known by) by my grandmother went on a charabanc ride to the woods with a group of young officers staying in Bournemouth for their convalescence in the spring of 1917

Can't quite work out what he is doing- opening a bottle? About 2 inches by 3 inches.

 

The photo of the young man in the blazer was taken in front of this same building. He matches pictures identified only as "Ginger" who has SWB collar badges like the unidentified man in the picnic  pic. You can see the theatrical set on the left. About 1 inch by 2 inches. Probably same camera as photo 1.

 

 

Edited 19 December , 2018 by Madmeg

[MBrockway]

Agree that “Ginger” in Pic #2 is wearing the South Wales Borderers officer’s Sphinx & SWB collar dog.

 

Mark

 

[Madmeg]

This is positively identified as "Ginger" (labelled) - SWB badge and I am pretty sure he is the chap in the (now identified) Bedford school blazer- there is a photo showing a better likeness for comparison but no badges are viewable.

 

Now I have ... "Ginger" , SWB , ?2nd Lt? , who went to Bedford School (probably fairly recently looking at his probable age) , who was convalescing in spring 1917 having (possibly?) joined up in Early 1917 and got the "no cuffs" officer uniform? (However, my grandfather who was commissioned (promoted from Sgt) on approx 1/1/17 has the old style officer's uniform so maybe he just changed uniforms because he could afford to?

 

I have emailed the Bedford School archive and am awaiting a reply.

 

 

 

Edited 19 December , 2018 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

The archivist at Bedford School has come back with a possible name for this chap Herbert Douglas Dawes who joined the SWB in 1914 but transgerred to the 32nd Sikh- date unknown- I'm chasing this up if he transferred before 1917 then this can;t be him.

 

edit- looks like HDD was a Lieutenant in 1914 and Captain in the Indian army 1917- so not a likely for Ginger

Edited 7 January , 2019 by Madmeg

[MBrockway]

46 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

The archivist at Bedford School has come back with a possible name for this chap Herbert Douglas Dawes who joined the SWB in 1914 but transgerred to the 32nd Sikh- date unknown- I'm chasing this up if he transferred before 1917 then this can;t be him.

 

edit- looks like HDD was a Lieutenant in 1914 and Captain in the Indian army 1917- so not a likely for Ginger

 

You should check the Army Lists - Lt Herbert Douglas DAWES, 1/SWB, is only listed as serving in the Indian Army from the June 1917 Monthly List onwards.  Prior to that he is listed as 1/SWB On Recruiting Duties.

 

That last may be relevant to your search.

 

I suspect the Bedford School archivist has made an identification based on photographs held by the school, so I would not dismiss their guidance too lightly.

 

Mark

 

[Madmeg]

11 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

You should check the Army Lists - Lt Herbert Douglas DAWES, 1/SWB, is only listed as serving in the Indian Army from the June 1917 Monthly List onwards.  Prior to that he is listed as 1/SWB On Recruiting Duties.

 

That last may be relevant to your search.

 

I suspect the Bedford School archivist has made an identification based on photographs held by the school, so I would not dismiss their guidance too lightly.

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

The only photo she has sent is a group one - he could be one of several lads in it.

I don't have access to the Army lists- only the free index searches on FMP and Ancestry- I've signed up to FWR for a month but their transcriptions seem to show him as a Lt from 1914 and possibly with the Indian Army in 1914- but their records are not- the most helpful format! Thanks for your checking

Dawes seems to have joined up in 1913. I'm currently checking men in the Queen Alexandra Hospital in 1917 on FMP (index check only atm) to see if any match up with my GF's time there- Dawes doesn't but that doesn;t mean he wasn't in Bournemouth in April 1917.

However, the man I am after was a 2nd Lt at that time- when did Dawes become a Lt? My reading is that he was a Lt by 1914.

 

I had hopes for a W G Giles but he wasn;t wounded until Nov 1917.

FMP is proving recalcitrant- it won't let me search by Corps and has now decided that having reached the letter H at 75 pages there are no more QAMH records to see (despite having records for my Gf who is much later in the alphabet- blow it all I'm going for a kayak!)

Edited 7 January , 2019 by Madmeg

[MBrockway]

Dawes made full Lieutenant on 22 Oct 1914.

 

09 Mar 1894 - Born

03 Sep 1913 - commissioned 2/Lt,SWB

22 Oct 1914 - Lt, SWB

19 Jul to 21 Jul 1917 - acting Capt., Indian Army

03 Sep 1917 - temp. Capt., SWB

03 Sep 1917 - Captain, Army

24 May 1918 - Capt., Indian Army

 

Recruiting Duties were often given to officers recuperating from wounds or in other ways unfit to go out to the Front.

 

Presumably Bedford School do have some idea of their alumni who enlisted into the SWB? Particularly as Dawes did so in peace time - i.e. was a professional Regular officer.

 

 

[Madmeg]

7 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Dawes made full Lieutenant on 22 Oct 1914.

 

09 Mar 1894 - Born

03 Sep 1913 - commissioned 2/Lt,SWB

22 Oct 1914 - Lt, SWB

19 Jul to 21 Jul 1917 - acting Capt., Indian Army

03 Sep 1917 - temp. Capt., SWB

03 Sep 1917 - Captain, Army

24 May 1918 - Capt., Indian Army

 

Recruiting Duties were often given to officers recuperating from wounds or in other ways unfit to go out to the Front.

 

Presumably Bedford School do have some idea of their alumni who enlisted into the SWB? Particularly as Dawes did so in peace time - i.e. was a professional Regular officer.

 

 

Can't be him then, bother. Thanks very much for checking.

That was the one the archivist thought most hopeful but I was thinking he was probably a bit old and too early joining up.

She hasn;t told me the others as yet- fingers crossed for  resolution.

He is quite interesting in his own right- born in India  father Colonel William Myers Dawes born in Southampton to Christopher also military born in Nova Scotia.  Might follow him up anyway but not the chap I'm after

Edited 8 January , 2019 by Madmeg

[MBrockway]

12 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Dawes made full Lieutenant on 22 Oct 1914.

 

09 Mar 1894 - Born

03 Sep 1913 - commissioned 2/Lt,SWB

22 Oct 1914 - Lt, SWB

19 Jul to 21 Jul 1917 - acting Capt., Indian Army

03 Sep 1917 - temp. Capt., SWB

03 Sep 1917 - Captain, Army

24 May 1918 - Capt., Indian Army

 

Recruiting Duties were often given to officers recuperating from wounds or in other ways unfit to go out to the Front.

 

Presumably Bedford School do have some idea of their alumni who enlisted into the SWB? Particularly as Dawes did so in peace time - i.e. was a professional Regular officer.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Can't be him then, bother. Thanks very much for checking.

That was the one the archivist thought most hopeful but I was thinking he was probably a bit old and too early joining up.

She hasn;t told me the others as yet- fingers crossed for  resolution.

He is quite interesting in his own right- born in India  father Colonel William Myers Dawes born in Southampton to Christopher also military born in Nova Scotia.  Might follow him up anyway but not the chap I'm after

 

How does my data sourced from the Army Lists rule out Lt Dawes being in Bournemouth in April 1917?

 

Is it just the rank?

 

If you have a definite specific month and a rank, the Monthly Army List will show all those in the SWB who match.  You could then take that back to Bedford School.

 

PS Your shot of 'Ginger' wearing SWB collar dogs is cropped too tight to tell if there are one or two pips on his epaulettes.  Any chance of a wider shot?

 

 

[Madmeg]

If he's a Lt in 1914 then he can't be the 2nd Lt pictured in Bournemouth in April 1917. Unfortunately.

The picture above does show the whole epaulette- only one pip. Unfortunately.

 

What is the best website for the monthly army list? I only have index on ancestry and FMP but can look properly if I can get to the library if I know where to find the info. I find the library versions seem to give different search options/results to what I get at home!-Library Ancestry will insist on defaulting to Australia collections and is very difficult to get it to search UK collections on their own. At home FMP refuses point blank to search anything by the corps (despite having that option listed- it just returns no results as soon as I put anything in the Corps box),  I've just got the monthly sub for FWR but it won't let me search without a name, so I can't do block searches for the Regiment- useless. Familysearch isn't well geared for searching for military records.

 

I have found a number of Hopsital records for men at the QAMH in 1917 when my gf was there but cross matching to FWR hasn't turned up any likelies yet- this is a very slow process as due to FMPs refusal to search by Corp I am having to check every single name to see what regiment they were in- plus FMP will only display up to 75 pages so to get them all I am having to use a wildcard search on first letter of the surname.

 

If there is an easier way to look at the monthly army lists I would love to know it! He's a second Lt in SWB in April/May 1917. Some of photographs have now been dated to between 10/4/17-24/4/17 and/or 11/5/17-15/5/17.

[MBrockway]

Here you go - May 1917 Monthly Army List at National Library of Scotland

 

From there you should also be able to reach the other months if you follow your nose a bit.

 

Enjoy!

 

Mark

 

[Madmeg]

2 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Here you go - May 1917 Monthly Army List at National Library of Scotland

 

From there you should also be able to reach the other months if you follow your nose a bit.

 

Enjoy!

 

Mark

 

Thanks Mark,

The great thing about this site is having people who know where to look!

Fortunately another post also helped me find where the SWB section is (alphabetical, pah!!!) let's put Cheshire before Royal Welsh then the SWB. Anyway I am now up to my neck in young officers, takes deep breath....

[MBrockway]

5 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Thanks Mark,

The great thing about this site is having people who know where to look!

Fortunately another post also helped me find where the SWB section is (alphabetical, pah!!!) let's put Cheshire before Royal Welsh then the SWB. Anyway I am now up to my neck in young officers, takes deep breath....

 

The Army Lists are in precedence order - simples

[Madmeg]

19 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

The Army Lists are in precedence order - simples

that's only simple if you have ever heard of army precedence order - which is totally incomprehensible to anyone used to working sensibly- eg alphabetically o numerically! :-D

 

Edited 10 January , 2019 by Madmeg

[inkerman]

Hi there Madmeg

 

Infantry regiments were numbered in sequence as each was raised - except the Guards who are, thank goodness a law unto themselves.  But the Long Long Trail lists the infantry regiments in Alphabetical and in Precedence order.  Hope that this helps you.

Richard

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, inkerman said:

Hi there Madmeg

 

Infantry regiments were numbered in sequence as each was raised - except the Guards who are, thank goodness a law unto themselves.  But the Long Long Trail lists the infantry regiments in Alphabetical and in Precedence order.  Hope that this helps you.

Richard

 

Not just the Guards, but also of course, by Royal Command, The Rifle Brigade.

 

London Gazette 1816 ...