Machine Gun Corps, Guillemont

[triciaking1]

I am seeking advice on the original burial place of Corporal Charles Payne of the 72nd Machine Gun Company, who died on 21 August 1918.  I have a copy of the army records form which indicates the position of his grave at the time of his death.  He is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial so his original grave was either never found or his body never identified.  The original grave reference states that it was at the foot of the bank on the west side, 100 yards south of quarries ie S19 E14 sheet 5.7.C south west Guillemont (see attachment).  I have looked at various trench maps on line but cannot quite locate the site.  Can anyone please advise?  I was also confused about where he was when he died - looking at the Forces War Records site, it states that his brigade was in Delville Wood on the 21st, going to Guillemont later.  I'd be grateful if anyone can clarify.

 

Tricia

[kenf48]

There is a typo in your original post in that Cpl Charles Payne was killed on 21 August  1916 

 

I think the sheet you want is 57c SW (Longueval)

here at NLS https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464777

 

The quarry is marked in square 19 as in the reference above Guillemont on your report i.e. Square 19 c 1.4.

see LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/  for the exact spot 

 

The war diary shows they were in support of an attack by the 8th Queens which failed and they had to withdraw. Two machine guns were in the adjacent square S 24 C.6.4 providing covering fire over Guillemont - Ginchy and Guillemont - Combles Road. Two machine guns were in square S 34 probably on the next map

 

Ken

 

Edited 17 December , 2018 by kenf48

[clk]

Hi Tricia,

 

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

The quarry is marked in square 19 as in the reference above Guillemont on your report i.e. Square 19 c 1.4.

 

I'm wondering if whoever supplied the original information got their S's and T's mixed up? The quarry appears to be square T.19.c. I think that S.19.c is off the left hand side of the map (S.19.b and S.19.d are shown) from the link that Ken posted. If you wanted to blend the map with a modern aerial view, this link should work.

 

1 hour ago, triciaking1 said:

He is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial so his original grave was either never found or his body never identified.

 

Unfortunately, I don't remember who, but I seem to recall that someone on the forum has access to some body density maps. They give a number count of bodies recovered post war, down to fairly small areas.

 

The Brigade Machine Gun Company war diary is here at the National Archives, and here on Ancestry. The 72 Infantry Brigade HQ diary is here, and here.

 

Regards

Chris

[jay dubaya]

The tip of the arrow relates to 57C.T.19.c.1.4. Guillemont Road Cemetery seems a logical place to start looking 2200+ burials with over 1500 Unknowns. I have the concentration reports for this cemetery already on my HD and I will endeavour to look later

 

Jon

Edited 17 December , 2018 by jay dubaya

[Don Regiano]

Google Earth view looking approx NNE across the Quarries

 

 

[WhiteStarLine]

Individual Burial Locations for Sheet 57c square T letter 19 are:

 

 84    57c.T.19.a
151    57c.T.19.b
 62    57c.T.19.c
 37    57c.T.19.d

 

[triciaking1]

Oh my goodness!  You are all fantastic, this is brilliant!  I am so grateful to you for sharing your expertise.  I never knew such things as body density maps existed.  I've attached a copy of the letter received by Charles' wife.  I'm not sure I quite believe how he was killed and wonder if the officer was being kind.  Apparently, because he had no known grave, his widow never really believed he was dead and she made up a story as to why he hadn't come home.  Very sad.  I will look very carefully at what you all have posted and pass the information on to his descendants.

 

Tricia

 

Charles Payne (1).pdf

[clk]

Hi Tricia,

 

The diary for the 8 Queen's is here on Ancestry, or here, Zero hour for the assault was 4:30 pm. The letter says that he was shot in the head by a sniper about half of an later.

 

Regards

Chris

[Franksy]

Hi. I think there may be a small confusion with the map reference but that doesn't really matter. The map below shows where I think the original burial probably was, as does the photo which I took a couple of hours ago. Our self-catering house is just a couple of hundred yards beyond where the quarry was.

Hope that might be useful.

Franksy

Edited 18 December , 2018 by Franksy
forgot to post photos

[KIRKY]

43 minutes ago, Franksy said:

Hi. I think there may be a small confusion with the map reference but that doesn't really matter. The map below shows where I think the original burial probably was, as does the photo which I took a couple of hours ago. Our self-catering house is just a couple of hundred yards beyond where the quarry was.

Hope that might be useful.

Franksy

Those fields look good John, hope you are well,

Tony

[Franksy]

Thanks Tony

All good here  in Guillemont

[jay dubaya]

Extract from the Individual Burial Location Map 57c showing square T.19, I believe these maps originated with the GRUs and the pencilled numbers relate to the number of burials that have been recorded and should be expected by the GRUs. We cannot say with any certainty that Cpl Payne is included in that number. Guillemont Road Cemetery contains many burials that were concentrated from the location T.19. and its sub squares. The CoG for the cemetery can be found here for anyone wishing to look closer. I've also looked at Delville Wood Cemetery which contains several 8th Queen's soldiers killed around that date whose remains were recovered from T.19.c, there could be more but I haven't looked that far yet.

Within the contents of the 72nd IB WD there is a report of the action and can be found here 

Franksy, I'd say your not far off the mark there (the crux of you red cross needs to be the other side of the bank by the first bush above the blue flash in Don's image). We have to look at T.19.c.1.4 being a 50 x 50 yard square but the reference to 'foot of bank' is quite specific, so the question is where was the foot of the bank in August 1916?

Aerial view of 57c.T.19 - T.25, I think the view needs rotating and I believe the quarry is the 'C' shape just off centre.

 

Jon

 

Edited 19 December , 2018 by jay dubaya
bad link

[Fattyowls]

Welcome to the forum Tricia, I'm as impressed with the gang and their expertise as you are, and I've seen them in action plenty of times. Just to give you a sense of the proximity of Guillemont Road Cemetery to the original burial site, this is the village taken from the cemetery, taken on one of those mornings when it felt like it was going to rain at any moment (but didn't). I think you can see the probable burial site, and possibly Franksy's place too.

 

Pete.

 

 

[triciaking1]

Thank you all, you wonderful people!  Charles Payne is not a relative, I was just helping someone out with family history, but I feel I have got to know him now, a handsome working class man with a young wife and three very young girls (one born in 1914).  He joined up early on and was wounded three times before the fatal shot - a typical story, but one that feels quite personal.  I have visited Guillemont several times and next time I go over, will make sure I visit again.  Thanks again!