British & Commonwealth Snipers

[PhilB]

An ex-sniper of the Accrington Pals told me that it was usual for them to operate from behind the British front line unless no man`s land was very wide (which it usually wasn`t). Apparently the sniper was more than happy to work at 2 or 3 hundred yards range, which made for increased safety and comfort. Phil B

[Piscator]

Sniper were equipped with a special rifle the P14 with scope of course. The ammunition for long range, accurate shooting was .303 8Z Greenspot (from the greenspot stamped on the cotton bandolier).

Arnie

Excuse my ignorance, I've used a standard .303 round, but what is the difference btween that and the .303 8z Greenspot. Is it a more powerful round or does it have a hardened point or hollow point.

Len

[Joe Sweeney]

Unless you subscribe to ONE badge for all three specialisms [which would hardly distinguish longe range snipers from close range bombers, and rather defeat the purpose of a distinguishing badge]

David,

Of course you know I do not subscribe to ONE badge fits all. I'm very well aware of the differences between badges a Bomber was authorized to wear and what a scout was authorized to wear.

Never said there was a specific sniper badge, however I do seem to recall that a green horizontal band at the cuff indicated sniper but can't recall the source.

All I said was that Doctrine recommended that Snipers be drawn from the Battalion scouts because they shared a common skills set-so wearing a scout qualification badge could indicate a sniper. In fact I think it would be your best visual indication that a man would be a sniper. This particulary fits since a battalion was only authorized a Scout Officer who almost alway was Scout/Sniper officer. I can easily see a unit breaking the function into two positions only the Sniper Officer not being officially sanctioned by WE.

This only takes into account the snipers internal to an Infantry Battlion.

This does not address the 13 Sharpshooter Groups that operated at Corps level. These are better known as Lovat Scouts.

Did Lovats Scouts have any special insignia--were they eligable like ordinary battalion scouts to qualify for the scout badge. Or was the title Scout a misnomer in Lovat Scouts and not really reflect their function?

Joe Sweeney

[Arnie]

Greeenspot ammunition was special ammunition manufactured to perfom with consistency. A greenspot was stamped on the Box and the bandolier. The ammunition was not to be used for any other reason than by snipers (other than in an emergency of course)

As World War I progressed, the need for a sniper rifle became apparent. Due to the P14's demonstrated accuracy it was the natural choice for a precision rifle.

Efforts were quickly made to develop a micrometer type back sight to improve upon the P14's natural accuracy. By late in 1917 a windage adjustable micrometer sight was available. These sights were approved for fitting to Winchester made rifles. The Winchester, having proved to be the most reliable and accurate of the three manufacturers. These rifles were designated Pattern 1914 MkI(F), the F denoting Fine Adjustment Sight.

By early 1918 Aldis had developed an off set telescope for the P14 and again only Winchesters were selected for conversion. These rifles never really achieved their total potential. As British sniping techniques of the time were relatively undeveloped and there value unrealized. As World War I ended the P14(T) was mostly downgraded and placed in long term storage.

The P14(T) was not seen again until the outbreak of World War II. Where they performed as an interim sniping rifle, while development of the No4 MkI(T) was being conducted.

The P14 firing .300 - 08 was used by the AEF. In fact all non regular units were armed with this weapon and was used by Sgt York when he won his Medal of Honour

[Simon R]

Martin Peglers new book on sniping 'From Out of Nowhere' (Osprey, 2004) might be useful.

[Muerrisch]

anyone read it, please?

[Julian Whippy]

Just to get back to Basics !

A good rifle does not maketh a Sniper.

From way back in the great war army school of sniping to today, It is the man that makes the sniper.

Qualities needed

Instincts if a hunter

Enduring Patience

Acute powers of observation

1st class shooting ability

Excellent eyesight

Be a non smoker

Above average intelligence

good fieldcraft skills

The rifle is but a mere tool !

[Muerrisch]

No one seems to be disputing that. However, it is only a part truth. Without a good rifle a sniper is no use. Brown Bess [a musket] in skilled hands was incapable of hitting a nominated man at about 100 yards. Extreme effective range of the Baker rifle against an individual was around 200 yards. Try sniping with that on the Somme and see where it gets you.

[Guest longrangesniper]

Sniper were equipped with a special rifle the P14 with scope of course. The ammunition for long range, accurate shooting was .303 8Z Greenspot (from the greenspot stamped on the cotton bandolier).

Arnie

Excuse my ignorance, I've used a standard .303 round, but what is the difference btween that and the .303 8z Greenspot. Is it a more powerful round or does it have a hardened point or hollow point.

Len

Mk8Z was developed after WW1 - in 1938 a heavier boat-tailed round increased the effective range of the Vickers MG from 3000 yards to 4500 yards. Green spot ammo is even later and is used to designate sniper grade ammo in 7.62mm.

[Sniper]

Just a few thoughts on what has been said so far.

Hesketh- Prichard was awarded the M.C. for his work as a sniper in the front line. His subsequent D.S.O. was for his work as Comandant, First Army SOS.

Henry Louie Norwest was awarded the M.M. and Bar and Francis Pegahmagabow the M.M. and two Bars for their work as scouts and snipers with the CEF. Norwest's score was 115 and Peggy's probably 378. Neville Methven of the South African Brigade won the M.C. as the O.C. of the Sir Abe Bailey's Sharpshooters. Hesketh - Prichard refers to Thomas Barratt (7th Batt. South Staffordshire Regt) as the sniper V.C. See also the citation for Harry Blanshard Wood (2nd Batt. Scots Guards).

Both scouts and snipers wore the fleur de lys on the right upper sleeve (see Blaikley's drawing in Chapter 2 of 'Sniping in France')

The rifle Arnie refers to is the Enfield P1914, manufactured by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone on contract. As Arnie says, the Winchester was greatly superior and the only make to be used for sniping. The heavier barrel allied to the front-locking Mauser action makes it much more accurate over any distance up to 300 yards when the SMLE comes into its own. The peep sight on the P1914 gave a much clearer sight picture than the V and blade of the SMLE. The fine adjustment sight gives elevation but it is still necessary to aim off for wind.

The Telescopic sight for the P14 was designed By Lord Cottesloe and Lt. Col Robinson of Enfield Lock, using a light weight Henscholt scope taken in a trench raid late in 1917 as a pattern. It was made by the Periscopic Prism Co.Ltd and 2001 units were ordered. Sadly they were only just filtering through to the troops when the Armistice was declared. The offset scope Arnie refers to `was the Mk III Aldis but this was a unit set up by Alex Martin of Glasgow in 1940 as a temporary sniper rifle during the development of the No4(T) and known as the No3 Mk1*(T)A.

All factory manufactured ammunition was and is made in runs of one million rounds. The first 50,000 rounds after the dies and measures have been re-set are designated as Greenspot and the next 250,000 as Blackspot (Sniper). The remaining 700,000 are standard,

8Z was made specifically for machine gun work utilising a heavier (190 grain) bullet and the suffix 'Z' means the load is nitro cellulose rather than Cordite. The consensus is that Greenspot was not used as a term until 1972 or 1973.

There are references to Divisional, Brigade and Battalion snipers. Hesketh - Prichard aimed at 1st Army SOS to train officers to be Sniping Officers and to pass on their training, although the school was soon training OR's as snipers as well.

The Lovat Scouts were raised by Lord Lovat for the Boer War and were recruited almost exclusively from the Ghillies and Estate workers from the great Scottish Estates. Their specialism was glasswork, using stalking telescopes and were used on the Western Front as Divisional Battle Observers. The ghillie suit was adapetd for sniper work at this time.

Regards

[grantsmil]

On badges.

It would appear that being a sniper was not in itself a trade. Scouting was a specialist area and one had to complete the appropriate course to be considered a 'scout'. Part of that training was sniping.

In Ion Idress's book "The Desert Column", (a narrative of a personal adventure of a Trooper in an Australian Light Horse unit in Gallipoli and Palestine), although a fine shot with the rifle, he did not consider himself to be a sniper until he had completed the Scouts course and was permitted to wear the Fleur-de-Lys. In the leading pages of his book there is a photo of his scout's badge.

This badge was introduced in 1905 and appears to have disappeared early in the 1920s.

The idea of sniper's badge becomes confusing with the introduction of a British Cavalry and Army of India scouts badge in 1909. The badge was a small wreath with an 'S' in the centre (bearing a resembleance to the more common, and much later, Surveyor's badge) The 'S' badge was in use during WW1, and was seen in France.

Perhaps this difference of two badges for the same purpose helped to cause the current misunderstanding. Especially when in later years the Fleur-de Lys was re-introduced as an unofficial snipers badge and then later still when an 'S' and rifles denoted a sniper.

[Muerrisch]

On badges.

It would appear that being a sniper was not in itself a trade. Scouting was a specialist area and one had to complete the appropriate course to be considered a 'scout'. Part of that training was sniping.

In Ion Idress's book "The Desert Column", (a narrative of a personal adventure of a Trooper in an Australian Light Horse unit in Gallipoli and Palestine), although a fine shot with the rifle, he did not consider himself to be a sniper until he had completed the Scouts course and was permitted to wear the Fleur-de-Lys. In the leading pages of his book there is a photo of his scout's badge.

This badge was introduced in 1905 and appears to have disappeared early in the 1920s.

The idea of sniper's badge becomes confusing with the introduction of a British Cavalry and Army of India scouts badge in 1909. The badge was a small wreath with an 'S' in the centre (bearing a resembleance to the more common, and much later, Surveyor's badge) The 'S' badge was in use during WW1, and was seen in France.

Perhaps this difference of two badges for the same purpose helped to cause the current misunderstanding. Especially when in later years the Fleur-de Lys was re-introduced as an unofficial snipers badge and then later still when an 'S' and rifles denoted a sniper.

Thank you: this is a useful addition to knowledge. I would suppose you have my book "British Army Proficiency Badges"?

Can I make a few points?

1. scout was not a trade, but skill at arms.

2. The fleur-de-lys may have been introduced earlier [by several years] than 1905, as training courses were introduced very soon after Mafeking. Baden Powell's seminal booklet does not, however, mention badges.

3. The situation in India is, alas, more complicated than you describe. To begin with, the 's in wreath' was earlier than 1909 [1907 at latest] and was probably an economy measure. As you say, only Scouts 1st and 2nd class of British cavalry were awarded the big or small brass fleur de lys: British infantry, and all natives, had to make do with the S in wreath. Within a few years, however, British infantry had wangled the fleur-de-lys, and officially too.

4. Personally, I do not accept there is confusion. The fleur-de-lys in the Great War was a Scout badge. The fact that some scouts qualified additionally as snipers is neither here nor there. There never was a sniper's badge for our period as such.

5. Yes, the fleur de lys was used in some units as a sniper badge in WW II. A darned sight safer than crossed rifles with an S!

6. Finally, I would be grateful for a scan of the photo from the book quoted.

[grantsmil]

You are of course quite correct the badge for Scouts is not a 'trade badge', but is to show a proficiency in a particular skill, namely scouting.

The date of the introduction of a badge is only from Army Orders, the date of it's acceptance, and as you have pointed out the use of the badge may preceed that date, by some time.

The Indian situation was indeed complicated and is difficult to accurately summarise in a single paragraph.

I agree that there should not be any confusion about there not being a 'sniper's badge', and it is clear that one did not exist during the time in question. However, the fact is that some people are confused, and that confusion is to some degree generated by the the points I attempted to raise. Hopefully in this forum, with the expertise available, that confusion can be laid to rest.

I will attempt to get you a scan from Idress's book. I also have an image of an Australian infantry sergeant wearing the Scout badge, would you like a copy of that image?

[Muerrisch]

The date of the introduction of a badge is only from Army Orders, the date of it's acceptance, and as you have pointed out the use of the badge may preceed that date, by some time.

I do not have the 1905 AO to hand, it will have to wait a bit. The wording will make clear whether it is an "introduction", or a "sanctioning" or a "modification".

Certainly there was a scout badge in India by 1904 [CR that year] to be gold for sergeants and worsted for rank and file [clearly not brass, design unknown]. By 1909 they were all brass in India, Home pattern [ie fleur-de-lys] for British Cavalry [both designs, for the two grades] British Cavalry, S in wreath for all others. By 1914 a slight further shift, with the first class fleur de lys for those qualified in British Infantry.

I would like to see both illustrations, thank you.

[grantsmil]

Thanks 'langleybaston1418', I would appreciate if you could find the reference in the 1905 AO, it would be nice to clarify whether it is an "introduction" or a "sanctioning" or a "modification".

I am unable to post any images on this site. I have written to you using the email on this site. If you could reply to me I will happily send you the image, if you have not received any mail from me please let me know.

To anyone else who would like to see the image, I am prepared to email copies.

[Arnie]

Sorry to disagree but .303 8z was introduced in 1917 for use by snipers it had a longer range and was more consistent. The original green spot was painted on the Ammo box and on the Bandoliers by the Ordanance depots to prevent the ammo being used inapropriately.

The designation green spot, black spot etc. was officialy adopted between the wars. 8z was also adopted by the MMGs from 1939 until 1960 when 8z went out of use in favour of 7z.

.303 8z Greenspot was was still in use by snipers up to 1959 when sniper sections were disbanded.

Arnie

[Muerrisch]

Thanks 'langleybaston1418', I would appreciate if you could find the reference in the 1905 AO, it would be nice to clarify whether it is an "introduction" or a "sanctioning" or a "modification".

I am unable to post any images on this site. I have written to you using the email on this site. If you could reply to me I will happily send you the image, if you have not received any mail from me please let me know.

To anyone else who would like to see the image, I am prepared to email copies.

My source of AOs is Cambridge University [nearer than PRO]. I shall list it for next routine visit.

No email rcd, I regret.

Standing by.

[Guest longrangesniper]

I don't want to labour the point but in 1938 the .303 Mark VIIIZ round was approved to obtain greater effective range from the Vickers Medium Machine Gun. This round had a nitro-cellulose powder charge with a 175 grain boat tailed, streamline, jacketed bullet having a muzzle velocity of 2550 fps. Chamber pressure however, was higher at 20 - 21 tons per sq" compared to the 19.5 tons per sq" of the Mark VII round. Hence troops were specifically ordered not to use this ammo in rifles. Therefore it would not have been issued to snipers in any war! Even the modern L42A1 rifle in 7.62mm using the No.4 Enfield action was only proofed to 20 tons. I wonder if Arnie is confusing MkVIIZ which was introduced in 1916, the Z designating a nitro-cellulose loading but no difference in bullet weight or velocity.

I know personally WW2 snipers who used MkVIIIZ in the stronger No.4 action but officially it was still forbidden. I would be interested to know Arnie's sources of information because they conflict with the official publications.

[Sniper]

longrange

My source tells me that MkVIIIZ was officially approved on 31/07/31 and declared obsolete in 1943 (B. A. Temple's "Identification Manual of the .303 British Service Cartridge")

He also has a box of WW! dated SAA marked "Sniper selected". It would be interesting to know Arnie's source for the MkVIII and the Greenspot comments. Radway Green say that they coined the term in the 1970's and don't know of any use of the word before they adopted it.

I have a copy of a sniper's notebook with references to various makes of SAA and what was thought of them. Some decidedly better than others!

McBride states the obvious i.e:- Find a good batch and get hold of as much as you can. It should then hold its zero. I know from bitter experience how difficult it is to adjust either the original Periscopic Prism Co. scope, or the PP Co. Model 1918 on the Enfield P14.

regards,

Sniper

[Arnie]

I've taken the information from notes and precis issued at MMG school Netheravon and the old Sniper school at Hythe.

I know for a fact we were using 8z in the Malaya in the sixties with the MMGs

Arnie

[Guest WoodyNZ]

My father has left a manuscript referring to snipers in the RMLI at the Somme in 1916 which may be of interest. Does anyone know who the "famous Colour Sergeant" was? Here's the quote referred to:

" the Battalion Scouts and Snipers. This little unit 20 strong was originally organised in Gallipoli by a famous Colour Sergeant (I regret that after all these years I have forgotten his name) who had led the RMLI shooting team at Bisley in pre war days."