neil williams Posted 8 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2018 thanks steve believe his reg was 1514 Not following your list or am i missing something please Cheers Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 8 December , 2018 Share Posted 8 December , 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, neil williams said: believe his reg was 1514 Not following your list or am i missing something please Neil With the exception of post #19 you had stated that his service number had been 1524 in all others and that is what I based my search on for an enlistment date. I can see now that you’re unsure as to what his West Yorkshire Regiment number was so I thought it best to check his medal roll entries for confirmation, it turns out that according to his British War & Victory Medal Roll entry his West Yorkshire Regiment service number was actually 1534. The ‘list’ I posted shows the date of attestation/enlistment based on the 5th West Yorkshire Regiment service number range 1521 to 1529 where service records survive, 1524 would have fallen in the range I posted for a general date of enlistment for Arthur Williams. Now his service number is outside of that range it will put his enlistment date back a little to more middle to end of February 1914. Steve Edited 8 December , 2018 by SteveE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 8 December , 2018 Share Posted 8 December , 2018 Neil I can’t find any surviving service records for men of the 5th Yorkshire Regiment with 153x service numbers but there is one for 1542 which gives an attestation date of 5th March 1914 so attestation/enlistment for 1534 would fall sometime between 12th February/5th March 1914. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 9 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2018 Thanks Steve-sorry to mislead you - looked again on the MIC and now confirm it is 1524 with 5th WYR At bottom of MIC it states- RE/101 B36 page 7526 Will this affect the list you sent me Cheers Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 December , 2018 Share Posted 9 December , 2018 1 hour ago, neil williams said: Thanks Steve-sorry to mislead you - looked again on the MIC and now confirm it is 1524 with 5th WYR At bottom of MIC it states- RE/101 B36 page 7526 Will this affect the list you sent me Cheers Neil Neil If you look closely at the MIC you’ll see that the number is 1534, despite what the indexing says, and this is borne out on the British War & Victory Medal Roll also. With that number in mind that puts his original attestation/enlistment date outside of the range I posted in post #25 and now falls between 12th February and 5th March 1914 as per post #28. The RE/101 B36 Page 7526 reference won’t affect the list at all, that is the reference that leads to the British War & Victory Medal Roll entry which confirms that his West Yorkshire Regt. service number was 1534. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 9 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2018 Thanks Steve The medal roll no was hand written at the time so one figure was slighty written wrong then which explains So as you say it is 1534 You say enlistment date 12 feb and 5 march 1914 But it states date of entry 3 sept 1915 wonder why the difference from 1914 to sept 1915 when he landed appreciate your views Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 9 December , 2018 Share Posted 9 December , 2018 Sorry to intrude, but this clip from The Long Long Trail website, which is well worth exploring in itself, answers your question Neil. This was a newly formed battalion, so initially it would be in camp in the UK, training until the powers that be deemed it ready for overseas service. Battalions of the Territorial Force 1/5th Battalion August 1914 : in York. Part of West Riding Brigade, West Riding Division. Moved on 10 August to Selby, end of the month to Strenshall and late October to York. In March 1915 moved to Gainsborough. 15 April 1915 : landed at Boulogne. 15 May 1915 : formation became 146th Brigade, 49th (West Riding) Division. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 10 December , 2018 Share Posted 10 December , 2018 22 hours ago, neil williams said: You say enlistment date 12 feb and 5 march 1914 But it states date of entry 3 sept 1915 wonder why the difference from 1914 to sept 1915 when he landed appreciate your views Neil I would suggest that you don’t get too hung up on the 5th Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment as, although Arthur enlisted as a “Territorial” into them sometime between 12th February and 5th March 1914, by the time he went overseas on 3rd September 1915 he had already transferred to the “Regular” Royal Engineers (#72642 is from the Royal Engineers “Regular” series of numbers and is not a “Territorial” number) and had been so for some time. Available Royal Engineers service records for numbers between 72630 and 72650 shows that sometime around 10th December 1914 men with a Telegraphist background were being transferred from the Territorial Force to the “Regular” Royal Engineers, the majority of these men were from the Territorial Force’s Northern Signal Company Royal Engineers but there was a smattering from some of the Territorial Force’s Yorkshire Infantry Regiments too. I would think it likely that, for administrative purposes, Arthur was firstly transferred to the Northern Signal Company Royal Engineers and then discharged from that unit with the purpose of enlisting in the regular army Royal Engineers. On (re)enlistment Arthur would have been trade tested at the Northern Signal Service Training Centre in Leeds and once proven he was a qualified Line Telegraphist would have been sent to the Signal Depot at Biggleswade, the men in the stated number range were ‘approved’ at Biggleswade around 24th February 1915. Interestingly the medal rolls for two such men #72632 (Samuel Wright) and #72649 (Charles Rider) shows the same date as Arthur, 3rd September 1915, for entry into theatre. These two men both have surviving service records which show that both embarked for overseas on 2nd September 1915 with the 27th Airline Section and I would suggest that, at least initially, Arthur was with this same Airline Section. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 11 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2018 Thanks Steve The medal roll no was hand written at the time so one figure was slighty written wrong then which explains So as you say it is 1534 You say enlistment date 12 feb and 5 march 1914 But it states date of entry 3 sept 1915 wonder why the difference from 1914 to sept 1915 appreciate your views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 11 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2018 Steve cannot thank you enough for this information much more than i could possibly have known! Assume Arthurs service record was lost in WW2 unless you know a way of finding out So i need a way of finding out when he actually joined the 5th so written to the author of Harrogate Terriers for info will let you know Thanks again for all the info Neil Still working my way around the forum bit hard to navigate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 12 December , 2018 Share Posted 12 December , 2018 Neil No problem at all, happy to help. I've been unable to find Arthur's service record on the usual sites so would assume it was amongst those lost and hence the reason I've looked for service records of men with similar service numbers to help build up a picture. Unfortunately I've been unable to find any records of men with a 5th Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment number in the 153x range to help close that original enlistment date window to anything other than between 12 February and 5 March 1914. Hopefully you will have some luck elsewhere. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 15 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2018 i realise many were lost in WW2 bit wondered if anybody has info the above 5 battalion WYR No 1534 and 23462 RE from 1917 Can anyone point me the right direction please or can i assume it is lost Neil Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 No service record pops up which would be no surprise as you realise but in addition no medal record for those numbers belonging to a Williams. That may indicate that he didn't serve abroad unless you have evidence to the contrary? Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 20 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2018 He certainly did-enlisted 3 sept 1915 with 5th west yorkshire until nov 1917 when he transferred to the RE signal corps in 1917 then to Italy and returned to France for the remalder uf the war any help appreciated Unit nos 1534-5th and 23462 RE Hope you can help Neil Williams Awarded the normal medals and MSM in 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 6 minutes ago, neil williams said: He certainly did-enlisted 3 sept 1915 with 5th west yorkshire until nov 1917 when he transferred to the RE signal corps in 1917 then to Italy and returned to France for the remalder uf the war any help appreciated Unit nos 1534-5th and 23462 RE Hope you can help Neil Williams Awarded the normal medals and MSM in 1919 Neil He didn't enlist 3rd September 1915 but did so between 12th February/5th March 1914, he went overseas on 3rd September 1915 with the RE. If you're going to get help you need to post the correct service numbers too....his RE service number was 72642 and not that which you've quoted above which is why there are no apparent medal records for Max to find. Furthermore, to save others duplicating effort here's a link to your earlier thread.... Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 20 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2018 Steve Many apologies to all for my mistakes and have taken on board the correct numbers Neil Williams Thanks for your previous support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 (edited) Don't know if you have seen this, a Medal Index Card for his MSM, quoting "Peace Gazette" as its reference for 'Date of Gazette'. Meritorious Service Medal MIC EDIT: Sorry, forgot to post link Edited 20 December , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 20 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2018 20 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Don't know if you have seen this, a Medal Index Card for his MSM, quoting "Peace Gazette" as its reference for 'Date of Gazette'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 Having looked at the other thread (thanks Steve) (which had the correct RE number!) I am at a loss to know what more is required. There are no service docs for him. There is something not quite right about "L Corps 11 Corps" quoted previously. The Corps were all numbered in latin numerals so L would be 50 but there wasn't a 50 Corps and 11 would have been XI. Basic data too confused for me! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil williams Posted 20 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2018 Thanks Dai Not seen this medal card Only the gazette of 3 june ilisting this Think it must be birthday honours award Not aware of the Peace gazette Any further info Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 I think that means it should be in the London Gazette of June 3rd 1919. But not the reference that jonbem gave. I'll have to browse the issue, although I don't find it easy to search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 (edited) Here it is: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31370/page/6876/data.pdf Edited 20 December , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 And just to clarify (was the query on this thread, or the other one?), that the "L" is the abbreviation used for 11 Corps. 7 Corps was G 22 Corps/2Anzac was Y 15 was P 9 was E 10 was X etc etc. There is a fuller list somewhere. The Long Long Trail puts L /11 Corps in Italy https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/the-campaign-in-italy-2/ " Signal Troops RE (L Corps Signal Company; 27 (Motor) Airline Section; R and LC Cable Sections, Corps Heavy Artillery Signal Section RGA) " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, MaxD said: There is something not quite right about "L Corps 11 Corps" quoted previously. The Corps were all numbered in latin numerals so L would be 50 but there wasn't a 50 Corps and 11 would have been XI. 72642 Williams was awarded the MSM (London Gazette #31370, 3rd June 1919) for services rendered in France. The London Gazette promulgation shows as just “Corps Sig. Coy.” The “L” is not the Corps it’s Williams’ middle initial, see below.... Edited 20 December , 2018 by SteveE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SteveE said: 72642 Williams was awarded the MSM (London Gazette #31370, 3rd June 1919) for services rendered in France. The London Gazette promulgation shows as just “Corps Sig. Coy.” The “L” is not the Corps it’s Williams’ middle initial Having said that the actual Medal Index Card for the MSM shows Sjt. A. Williams was serving with 101 Motor Airline Section, “L.” Corps Signal Coy. at the time of the award.... [Image NA Ref. WO 372/24/108814 and sourced from Ancestry.co.uk] Edited 20 December , 2018 by SteveE Reference added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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