gwalchmai Posted 14 December , 2018 Share Posted 14 December , 2018 I realise that they would bot be for combat. But do we have any information on what the RND officers would carry? Would it be the normal RN 1827 pattern? Or would it be the Army officer pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 14 December , 2018 Share Posted 14 December , 2018 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/78818.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 Very interesting, Jane. Quote:- "Though not certainly the sword of R D, the combination of military style hilt and naval blade suggest most strongly that this weapon is correctly identified. Mr W. Reid of the Armouries, HM Tower of London says that the hilt has also been found on Colonial Police swords." Who do you reckon RD Is? Is it not possible that this is an ersatz, non regulation pattern sword bought because it was available while the regulation pattern (which I thought , without any evidence, would be standard RN pattern) was not available? Are there other such examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/the-national-museum-of-the-royal-navy-portsmouth-opening-of-a-new-115-million-visitors-centre-picture-shows-a-sword-which-belonged-to-lieutenant-vere-sidney-tudor-harmsworth-of-the-royal-naval-division-he-was-killed-in-action-at-the-battle-of-anc-4608490a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 Hi Phil, personally I think R D is a typo for RND . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 (edited) Notwithstanding the Greenwich Museum's description (Post #2), I can see no reason why a naval officer would wear, in the full-dress naval uniform requiring sword and medals, anything other than a standard pattern naval officer's sword (with sharkskin hand grip as shown in the link at Post #4). RN Uniform Regulations do not appear to authorise any alternative cutlery. The sword described may be a cheap version made for use by junior officers on the parade ground in training establishments. Alternatively, a variation on the sword carried by officers of the RMLI and RMA is a possibility:- "Half-basket, steel hilt with two fluted bars on the outside; black fish-skin grip bound with silver wire; slightly curved blade 35.5 inches long and 1.25 inches wide, having Corps devices grooved and spear-pointed." [Dress Regulations: Officers, Royal Marines.] Edited 15 December , 2018 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 A group photo of RND officers with swords would be interesting (if such exists!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 Sub-Lieutenant Ian C. McCormick, Royal Naval Division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 A naval sword worn with suspension from a Sam Browne belt, as expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 December , 2018 Share Posted 15 December , 2018 2 hours ago, horatio2 said: A naval sword worn with suspension from a Sam Browne belt, as expected. And another seen here in this crop from a photograph reproduced on p.2124 of Len Sellers' magazine RND Issue No.21, June 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 (edited) On 14/12/2018 at 22:47, gwalchmai said: I realise that they would bot be for combat A further note regarding the crop above While perhaps not actually taken into combat, the sword was certainly carried by this officer on his way to a theatre of war Len Sellers' caption indicates that the photograph was taken aboard the SS Franconia on the voyage to Gallipoli Edited 16 December , 2018 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 Well-spotted, Michael. Although a bit obscured it appears to be a naval sword. The sword knot seems to have been removed, revealing the aperture in the hilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 10 minutes ago, horatio2 said: Well-spotted, Michael. Although a bit obscured it appears to be a naval sword. The sword knot seems to have been removed, revealing the aperture in the hilt. Isn't the sword knot hanging down the front over the canvas bag attached to his Sam Brown? Merely an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 I had assumed it to be normal to wear a leather knot in everyday use and a regimental knot for ceremonial occasions. Not so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 (edited) With a further enlargement and crop the quality of reproduction goes adrift, but nevertheless this may help The lion's head pommel is quite distictive and different from that seen in the example at Greenwich (post No.2) The latter seems to have more in common with the design of a sword presented to the Master at Arms of HMS New Zealand see http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/78829.html ie a Warrant Officers' sword rather than that of a Commissioned Officer (but I'm begining to get out of my depth here ) Edited 16 December , 2018 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 That seems to have a leather knot attached but not through the hole in the guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 10 minutes ago, PhilB said: That seems to have a leather knot attached but not through the hole in the guard? Perhaps an honest mistake by an newly commissioned eager beaver (It has also previously been commented on that while he was only entitled to one ring, his sleeve shows two) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 As opposed to the one in post #8 worn correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 2 hours ago, PhilB said: That seems to have a leather knot attached but not through the hole in the guard? 14 minutes ago, PhilB said: As opposed to the one in post #8 worn correctly? Sorry Phil, I can't answer that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 Just for interest! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 https://www.messdress.com/shop/swords/sword-knot-assembly.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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