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Remembered Today:

Corporal PS/5582 Arthur Coningsby Saville, 20th Royal Fusiliers


Mark Wylie

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Hello,

I am researching this soldier who joined the 20th Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. This was one of the Public Schools battalions.

I am a bit confused by his military timeline and would appreciate some help as his service record doesn't appear to have survived.

He appears to have enlisted early in the war and was certainly serving in 'B' Company whilst training.

The medal roll for his Victory/War medals say that under 'Theatres of War in which served' - 1 (a) [so France & Flanders] and dates 14.11.15 to 12.9.16.

His 1914-15 Star medal roll says that he was transferred to 17th OCB 8.9.17. [Officer training]

His Medal index card states 'Comm [issioned]' 8.9.17.

Just to muddy the waters a bit there is a further 1914-15 Star medal roll for the Royal Fusiliers Depot that states 'Dis [charge] to Comm [ission]' 1.5.18.

These dates confuse me a bit as I am not a specialist in all this.

Does this mean that this soldier served on the front line from 14.11.15 to 12.9.16, then was transferred for 'Home' service, potentially at the regimental depot, before going for Officer training from 8.9.17 and eventually being commissioned in May 1918. He does then appear to join a battalion of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment as a 2/Lt. This was gazetted in the London Gazette 3rd May 1918.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Mark

 

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The London Gazette gives his commission as 1 May 1918

 

Click for LG page

 

And he advances to Lt on 1 Nov 1919, indicating that 1 May was indeed his commission date

Edited by corisande
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Quote

Does this mean that this soldier served on the front line from 14.11.15 to 12.9.16,

He was overseas during that time, which may or may not have been at the front.
 

Quote

before going for Officer training from 8.9.17 and eventually being commissioned in May 1918

 

I think you're correct but it seems a long time for the training - LLT suggests 4 1/2 months was typical.


Craig

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Thanks for this. I hadn't found the one in 1919. amateur:D

8 minutes ago, corisande said:

The London Gazette gives his commission as 1 May 1918

 

Click for LG page

 

And he advances to Lt on 1 Nov 1919, indicating that 1 May was indeed his commission date

 

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8 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

He was overseas during that time, which may or may not have been at the front.
 

I think you're correct but it seems a long time for the training - LLT suggests 4 1/2 months was typical.


Craig

Thanks Craig, it was the length of time for this officer training that had me thinking. I presume that he must have had some duties at the depot after 12.9.16, or am I reading too much into that part?

Cheers

Mark

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He's on the October 1918 Monthly Army List as a Second Lieutenant with seniority of the 1st May 1918 and serving with the 4th Battalion of the Loyals. However while further up the column there are indicators as the whether officers are with the 1st or 2nd line battalion, (1/4 or 2/4) he and all the other 2nd Lieutenants below him are shown as (r). To add even more confusion the 4th (Reserve) Battalion (Territorial) is shown separately with it's own establishment of officers, so I'm not at all sure where he was actually serving.
 

Couldn't find anything in the London Gazette to confirm when he left that Army, but thats not unusual.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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42 minutes ago, PRC said:

He's on the October 1918 Monthly Army List as a Second Lieutenant with seniority of the 1st May 1918 and serving with the 4th Battalion of the Loyals. However while further up the column there are indicators as the whether officers are with the 1st or 2nd line battalion, (1/4 or 2/4) he and all the other 2nd Lieutenants below him are shown as (r). To add even more confusion the 4th (Reserve) Battalion (Territorial) is shown separately with it's own establishment of officers, so I'm not at all sure where he was actually serving.
 

Couldn't find anything in the London Gazette to confirm when he left that Army, but thats not unusual. 

 

Cheers,

Peter

Many thanks Peter. I will get hold of the War Diaries and see what it says in them.

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Mark,

 

A cheaper option is this book - https://archive.org/details/warhistoryof1st400grea/page/n11.   States he joined 1/4th LNL on 15 October 1918.

 

I haven't anything to add regarding his service with 20th RF.  He was educated at Manchester Grammar School but there is nothing obvious in the school magazine regarding him. 

 

The gap between leaving France and attending cadet school might be accounted for by illness or wounds.  Once at an OCB a relapse or further injury/illness might have accounted for the delay.  His service records do not seem to be on the National Archives catalogue; you can potentially get his service records from the MoD.

 

Regards

 

Colin

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Many thanks Colin and indeed to everyone who has helped on this. I knew I would be able to get answers to my questions and potential sources of information from you experienced guys.

 

I did wonder if he was educated at MGS. I suspected that he was but had nothing to base my guesswork on.

 

What I can tell you about him, if you are interested, is that he was a cricketer and amateur footballer playing for Lymm Cricket Club and Lymm Amateurs FC. He was born on 12th June 1892 and died 30th September 1964.

 

His football career was almost exclusively with Lymm Amateurs - except in 1911 when he made three appearances for Manchester United reserves.

"Mr Ernest Mangnall, the United secretary, yesterday signed on A.C. Saville of the Lymm Amateurs, as a goalkeeper. Saville is quite a figure on any football field for, though only 19 years of age, he is 6ft 5in, in height and weighs 14 ½ st. He will make his first appearance for the United on Saturday, in their match at Old Trafford, against the Burnley Reserves. The United team will be Saville, Holden, Donnelly, Livingstone, Whalley, Hodge, Sheldon, Hamill, Anderson, Picken and Blott." Manchester Courier, 30th November 1911

He also played for the B Company football team of the 20th Royal Fusiliers, winning the Brigadier's Cup at Epsom. In the History of the Royal Fusiliers UPS Formation and Training book he is noted as captain of the winning team and holds the trophy in the photo that is opposite page 72.

“Pte. Saville, in accepting the cup, said, as captain of B Company team, it gave him great pleasure to receive the cup from the Brigadier. That was the fourth or fifth game they had played in the competition, and he thought Ashtead had given them the best game of the lot. He wished them better luck next time. (Cheers.)” Surrey Advertiser, 10th February 1915

My interest is in the Manchester United players, both first team and reserves, who served in the First World War, thus this enquiry - I am the curator at Manchester United's museum.

He was also at Wharncliffe Hospital in Sheffield at some point, probably November 1918, as the war diaries mention he was sent to a Field Ambulance on 2nd November 1918.

http://www.wharncliffewarhospital.co.uk/Index.html

This was, as mentioned in your replies, when he was with the Loyal North Lancs.

So, thank you very much again for your help with this, it has made his timeline a bit clearer for someone like me who is not a military specialist.

Regards

Mark

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