Pip Squeak Wilfred and DCM?

[Skipman]

This is a screenshot from the film 1943  "The Freedom of Aberfeldy" Is shows a sergeant, about 3 mins 48 secs in  (I think Home Guard), with medal ribbons. I assume these are WW1 medals and a Forum colleague think the sergeant may be wearing the D.C.M. ribbon. What do you reckon?

 

Cheers Mike

[Medaler]

If it is a trio and DCM, then he needs to  be on a charge. They are in completely the wrong order.

 

I am seeing - from left to right as we are looking at them...........

British War Medal

Victory Medal

Unidentified - but possibly India General Service 1908-35

Efficiency Medal or maybe GV Silver Jubilee Medal.

 

Having said that, I could easily be wrong, just thought I'd start the ball rolling!

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Buffnut453]

Might the 3rd medal be a QSAM?  It has a similar appearance to others I've seen where the yellow centre appears darker than the other stripes due to ortho film and/or lens filters.  That said, I'm not sure whether ortho film was often used for motion pictures...so perhaps the Indian GSM is more likely.  

[Skipman]

I'm certain his last name is Stewart, and (my hunch is Charles Low Stewart)  but await confirmation of this. A newspaper report says "Mrs Stewart, Kenmore Street" is serving the tea.

 

Sgt 1957 1/6th Black Watch and 265508 4/5th Black Watch entered theatre 2/5/1915 discharged p 392  xvi KR 26/2/1919 Wounded June 1915 and November 1916

 

If it's Charles Low Stewart, he was born 1892. Charles Low Stewart died 22/4/1958  at 34 Kenmore Street (Forester) married to Helen McDiarmid. Their son was killed at Monte Cassino. My old pal Bill Keir (deceased), served in the 6th Black Watch in WW2, and Charlie Stewart was his instructor in early 1939 at Aberfeldy. It's Bill's sister who will hopefully confirm my hunch.

 

Mike

[Medaler]

3 minutes ago, Skipman said:

I'm certain his last name is Stewart, and (my hunch is Charles Low Stewart)  but await confirmation of this. A newspaper report says "Mrs Stewart, Kenmore Street" is serving the tea.

 

Sgt 1957 1/6th Black Watch and 265508 4/5th Black Watch entered theatre 2/5/1915 discharged p 392  xvi KR 26/2/1919 Wounded June 1915 and November 1916

 

If it's Charles Low Stewart, he was born 1892. Charles Low Stewart died 22/4/1958  at 34 Kenmore Street (Forester) married to Helen McDiarmid. Their son was killed at Monte Cassino. My old pal Bill Keir (deceased), served in the 6th Black Watch in WW2, and Charlie Stewart was his instructor in early 1939 at Aberfeldy. It's Bill's sister who will hopefully confirm my hunch.

 

Mike

 

If you have the right chap then he should have a 14-15 Star. I just can't see one in that array. It should be the one nearest to the centre of his chest.

 

I presume the DCM is thought to be the third one out towards his shoulder (working from the centre of his chest). It should however, in the correct order, have kicked the 14-15 Star into 2nd place. As worn in the correct order they should be.....

 

DCM, Star, War  Medal, Victory Medal

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Skipman]

Hi Mike. I'm not certain I have the right man and hopefully will find out at least if I'm wrong. The DCM was a suggestion from a pal and I am no expert on medals so cannot say one way or the other.

 

Will get back to you all as soon as I find out what the lady says.

 

Mike

[Medaler]

1 hour ago, Buffnut453 said:

Might the 3rd medal be a QSAM?  It has a similar appearance to others I've seen where the yellow centre appears darker than the other stripes due to ortho film and/or lens filters.  That said, I'm not sure whether ortho film was often used for motion pictures...so perhaps the Indian GSM is more likely.  

 

If it was a QSA, then I suspect that the same darkening would (logically) have effected the yellow in the VM ribbon as well. It's in the right place in the "batting order" for a QSA, but I don't think it is one. As stated in my first post however, I am not saying that I'm 100% certain. Far from it!

 

Mike

[mancpal]

Just to chuck another spanner in the works......... Could it be the MSM ribbon?

[Medaler]

29 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Just to chuck another spanner in the works......... Could it be the MSM ribbon?

 

I'm not seeing that configuration in it (but that doesn't mean I'm right). Centre stripe looks too wide for it to be a MSM which, for want of a better way of describing it, is like the revised ribbon for the Army LSGC medal, but with an additional thin stripe of white in the centre.

 

I do love these ribbon identification games, but they are usually all settled before I get to take part. It's the one nearest his shoulder that I'm really struggling with.

 

Mike

 

 

Edited 10 December , 2018 by Medaler

[Buffnut453]

4 hours ago, Medaler said:

 

If it was a QSA, then I suspect that the same darkening would (logically) have effected the yellow in the VM ribbon as well. It's in the right place in the "batting order" for a QSA, but I don't think it is one. As stated in my first post however, I am not saying that I'm 100% certain. Far from it!

 

Mike

 

Yep, I'd temd to agree.  That jives with the nagging doubt I had about ortho film being used for motion pictures.

 

Glad you're here to keep me straight.

[Skipman]

I have just spoken to the sister of my old pal Bill Keir (6th Black Watch WW2) She is as sure as she can be that the Home Guard soldier is, as I suspected, Charles Low Stewart

 

Sgt 1957 1/6th Black Watch and 265508 4/5th Black Watch entered theatre 2/5/1915 discharged p 392  xvi KR 26/2/1919 Wounded June 1915 and November 1916

 

Medal Index Card

 

Not sure what any other medals might be but it seems he was an instructor locally between and during the war, and also the cadets. The young lad is apparently a cadet? Edit 20.15 12/12/2018 Air Training Corps

 

Mike

Edited 12 December , 2018 by Skipman

[IPT]

26 minutes ago, Skipman said:

The young lad is apparently a cadet?

 

 

Air Training Corps.

 

Did the airman say that his name was John, the same as the son of the house? That may be a clue.

 

Here'a son;

 

CHARLES P. M. STEWART, SGT 6TH BW 

Charles Peter Macdonald Stewart – age 26 – Sergeant (2753795) 6th Battalion, Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 
Prior to joining up Charles was a gardener with his father. He served with the 6th Black Watch in France until they were lifted off the beaches at Dunkirk, and in Tunisia in 1943. They then took part in the hard-fought advance in Italy against the several well prepared German defensive lines and most particularly at Monte Cassino. (Source: Dundee Courier 29/5/1944 p.2 and theblackwatch.co.uk) 
Born 1918 in St. Andrew, Dundee. Son of Charles Low Stewart and Helen or Nellie (MacDiarmid) Stewart of Mill Cottage, Aberfeldy. Husband of Barbara or Rita (Broatch) Stewart of Whitlees, Waterbeck who he married in 1940 in Middlebie, Dumfriesshire. 
Killed in Action on 14 May 1944 and buried in Cassino War Cemetery, Italy. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2613006/stewart,-charles-peter-macdonald/

 

In 1942,  lan Stewart, of Mill Cottage, Aberfeldy, was fined £5 and had his licence endorsed for careless driving.

 

 

Edited 12 December , 2018 by IPT

[Skipman]

Thanks IPT, the very one Post #4

 

You are correct and there is still a nagging doubt as the narrator suggests that the soldier's name is John . In the next few days I will personally go through the film with this lady and see if we can definitely identify him. She tells me that Charlie and his wife lived at "The Armoury" Kenmore Street. I know that Charles Low Stewart died at № 34 Kenmore Street. Will find out if 34 and the Armoury are one and the same.

 

Mike

 

 

Edited 12 December , 2018 by Skipman

[IPT]

Oops. I missed post 4!

 

An obituary for the son in 1944 stated that Charles Low Stewart had formerly lived at the Armoury, so before moving to Mill Cottage (I estimate between August 1941 and October 1942). He must have lived at 34 Kenmore Street later. 

 

There is currently a cottage called The Armoury, Kenmore Street, but it's a detached cottage and 34 is an end terrace.

 

 

Edited 12 December , 2018 by IPT

[Skipman]

3 minutes ago, IPT said:

Oops. I missed post 4!

 

An obituary for the son in 1944 stated that Charles Low Stewart had formerly lived at the Armoury, so before moving to Mill Cottage (I estimate between August 1941 and October 1942). He must have lived at 34 Kenmore Street later. 

 

There is currently a cottage called The Armoury, Kenmore Street, but it's a detached cottage and 34 is an end terrace.

 

 

 

You know Aberfeldy better than I do.

 

The Armoury is an interesting building. Old Drill Hall with much great history. Thanks for the info.

 

Mike

[IPT]

Ah, is that the Armoury Tollhouse?

 

The Armoury is currently a holiday cottage, but I don't know if it was called that then

 

There's a snippet about Aberfeldy in the Perthshire Advertiser of 14th May 1941 "Servicemen’s prizes—Sergt.- Major Charles L. Stewart. Black Watch"

 

Are you sure he was Home Guard?

[Skipman]

That's the Armoury. The house in which young William McIntosh spent his young life.

 

"Are you sure he was Home Guard?"

 

No am not sure. The soldier in the film is almost certainly Home Guard, isn't he? We're not done with this yet, are we?

 

Mike

[Skipman]

Have seen the PA article now you've drawn my attention to it. Interesting. I think I will post on the Black Watch Forum. If we could find a photo of Charlie Stewart that would help. I wish I had run the film past Bill Keir.

 

Mike

[IPT]

1 hour ago, Skipman said:

You are correct and there is still a nagging doubt as the narrator suggests that the soldier's name is John .

1

 

I heard it that the son of the house was John?

 

If the film was made in 1943, (or is that just the release date?), then I suppose Charles Sr, (now aged 52), could have been 'retired' from the Black Watch and joined the Home Guard as a Sergeant, however I estimate that he would have been living in Mill Cottage by then.

 

We know that CL Stewart had a son, Charles, born in 1918 and, probably  another son, Ian, who was old enough to be pinched for careless driving in 1942. They could have left home or been away fighting at the time. What we see is a son (John?), born c1930 and a daughter born c1936.

 

I keep changing my mind but the newspaper snippet about Mrs Stewart serving the tea is what's keeping me in the Charles Low Stewart camp... for now.

 

 

PS - Typical of the Scottish to charge £15 for the1939 Register 

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 December , 2018 by IPT

[Skipman]

If you give me a link to the 1939 Register I will get it.

 

Mike

[Skipman]

In 1911, Charles Low Stewart was a gardener (19) living with his uncle and aunt Peter and Helen Macdonald at 34 Kenmore Street, Aberfeldy.

 

Mike

[Skipman]

17 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

I heard it that the son of the house was John? You could be right, will listen again tomorrow.

 

If the film was made in 1943, (or is that just the release date?), I think filmed summer/autumn 1942, released Feb 1942.

 

then I suppose Charles Sr, (now aged 52), could have been 'retired' from the Black Watch and joined the Home Guard as a Sergeant, however I estimate that he would have been living in Mill Cottage by then.

 

We know that CL Stewart had a son, Charles, born in 1918 and, probably  another son, Ian, who was old enough to be pinched for careless driving in 1942. They could have left home or been away fighting at the time. What we see is a son (John?), born c1930 and a daughter born c1936.

 

I keep changing my mind but the newspaper snippet about Mrs Stewart serving the tea is what's keeping me in the Charles Low Stewart camp... for now. Yes that's what drew me to Charlie Stewart in the first place. The lady I spoke to said it was Charlie Stewart but I may have (stupidly) influenced her.

 

 

PS - Typical of the Scottish to charge £15 for the1939 Register 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skipman]

1911 Census

 

mike

[IPT]

Yes, the gardener connection certainly fits with what we know about CL Stewart and his son.  You would have to order the specific record from 1939 National Identity Register, so I would leave that as a last resort (i'd keep it in the pension pot for now).

 

A few newspaper hits for "Charles L Stewart" show him MC'ing various events in Aberfeldy and the Home Guard man does look like a good character.

 

Your Home Guard group photo is captioned 1943/44? Is there any reason he wouldn't be amongst those present, and is everyone confident that the man from the film definitely not on there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skipman]

21 minutes ago, IPT said:

Your Home Guard group photo is captioned 1943/44? Is there any reason he wouldn't be amongst those present, and is everyone confident that the man from the film definitely not on there?

 

 

Yes that too had occurred to me. His name was not on the list though one name is elusive. I also have short history of the Aberfeldy Home Guard and don't see his name mentioned there. It's a vary interesting document and can email those who would like to see it.

 

Re your second point. I will post both images on the Aberfeldy Museum Facebook page and see if anyone sees him, or knows why he might not be there.

 

Thanks for your interest IPT you're like a dog with a bone on these things and I'm glad to have you on the case.

 

Mike