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Remembered Today:

Uniform insignia query, Radnorshire


clive_hughes

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Hi,

I was recently sent this picture by a relative of the man in uniform.  The family came from near Rhayader, Radnorshire.

 

I was unable to make much of his uniform - looked like an archetypal Army officer, but the badges/emblems on his right sleeve seemed curious if that was the case.  Any comments welcomed.

 

Many thanks,

Clive

 

 

DSCN3492.JPG

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Can’t help with the sleeve badges but the collar of the officer’s tunic looks to me more like a WW2 battledress blouse, when they were still made to button up.  The shirt collar is odd, too.

D

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Doesn’t look like the rest of the group have realised it’s WW2 judging from their attire.

 

Simon

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It may be an imperfection on the photo but is the man on the officers left wearing a SWB?

(Very hard to say on an ageing iPhone).

 

Simon

 

p.s. Sorry Daggers, I meant to mention I agree about the tunic collar, it somehow looks out of place.

Edited by mancpal
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I think that this possibly shows a late-war RA Warrant Officer 1st Class, Instructor of Gunnery, although I’m not clear from memory how the badge looked at that time when new badges were being introduced for the various appointments.  Perhaps a coat of arms above crossed gun barrels on both sleeves.  I will check references later and report back if someone does not beat me to it.

Alternatively, a similar badge when viewed from a distance would be a WOI of the School of Musketry, with crossed rifles in place of the crossed gun barrels. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Mancpal,

The original isn't brilliant, but I suspect it's a photo imperfection - seems to be another one to the left of it.

 

Frogsmile,

Member Myrtle has found a possible ID, namely a James R.Pugh who was domiciled in a farm very close to the suggested area (close enough to be counted as part of it), but it happens to be just over the border in Montgomeryshire.  He (or someone with an identical name) appears in news cuttings during WW1 as belonging to the Rhayader section of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry.  There is indeed a MIC to a James R.Pugh 1971/135327 Montgy. Yeo. who earned a Pair plus TFWM as Sergt. / WO2 with this unit (though curiously no mention of the RWF, which the 1/1st MY became part of in 1917).

 

Would the uniform and insignia pictured fit with a Yeomanry  WO2??  

 

Clive

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Stop press,

He needn't have served with the RWF - the several medal rolls themselves indicate Montgomery Yeo., but he was also attached to 3rd Nigeria Regiment WAFF for a time during 1917, possibly in East Africa.  Disembodied 1919.

 

Clive

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59 minutes ago, clive_hughes said:

He needn't have served with the RWF 

 

I'd say he didn't based on RWF Medal Rolls for 25th Bn.

When 1st 1st Mont Yeo became 25th Bn RWF their RWF numbers were allocated in terms of ascending Mont Yeo numbers (length of service?). Here's where his number would have sat and you can see that there is no RWF room for him 

 

355109 M Yeo 1963 EVANS RICHARD Llanrhaiadr
355110 M Yeo 1964 Powell Phineas St Harmons
355111   Williams Gilbert John Garth
355111 M Yeo 1967 Williams Gilbert John Beulah, Garth
355112 M Yeo 1968 Evans Pryce  
355113 M Yeo 1969 Jones David Oswald Llanfair Caereinion
355114 M Yeo 1975 Davies Richard  
355115 M Yeo 1976 Jones David Griffith Bwlch y Cibau
355116 M Yeo 1979 Langford Ernest Llanddysul
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19 hours ago, mancpal said:

It may be an imperfection on the photo but is the man on the officers left wearing a SWB?

(Very hard to say on an ageing iPhone).

 

Simon

 

1 hour ago, clive_hughes said:

Mancpal,

The original isn't brilliant, but I suspect it's a photo imperfection - seems to be another one to the left of it.

Clive

 

I'm seeing it as one end the top rail of the lady's chair back.

 

You can see its inverse at the other end including a matching 45º corner.

 

The centre area of the top rail is obscured by some sort of 'furry' covering or cushion that the lady is leaning back against.

 

The soldier's left arm is resting on the chair back with his left hand dangling between the chair back and the lady's neck.  The fingers of his right hand are obscured behind the 'furry' covering.

 

Mark

 

 

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3 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

Mancpal,

The original isn't brilliant, but I suspect it's a photo imperfection - seems to be another one to the left of it.

 

Frogsmile,

Member Myrtle has found a possible ID, namely a James R.Pugh who was domiciled in a farm very close to the suggested area (close enough to be counted as part of it), but it happens to be just over the border in Montgomeryshire.  He (or someone with an identical name) appears in news cuttings during WW1 as belonging to the Rhayader section of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry.  There is indeed a MIC to a James R.Pugh 1971/135327 Montgy. Yeo. who earned a Pair plus TFWM as Sergt. / WO2 with this unit (though curiously no mention of the RWF, which the 1/1st MY became part of in 1917).

 

Would the uniform and insignia pictured fit with a Yeomanry  WO2??  

 

Clive

 

He could be Yeomanry Clive, but it would not be normal for a WOII to wear a Sam Browne at home (Britain - the practice was different in India).  Looking at the uniformed man’s right cuff, combined with the Sam Browne, and I  cannot see that he is anything else but a WOI, which would make him the regiment’s sergeant major (RSM).  The question is what is the badge beneath the apparent badge of rank.  The appearance suggests a crossed weapon of some kind.

 

N.B.  The 3 younger men stood centrally appear to be brothers going by the clear facial resemblance.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hywyn and Mark, thank you very much for your input!

 

Frogsmile, when I first saw it, I wondered if it was a marksman's badge - could this be worn by Warrant Officers?  

A possibility (and only that) is whether he was promoted to WO1 after the end of the war - I think medal rank had to be the highest held at close of hostilities didn't it?  I'm assuming by what you say that the WAFF wouldn't have let their attached WO2s wear Sam Brownes.

 

Cheers,

Clive

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1 hour ago, clive_hughes said:

Hywyn and Mark, thank you very much for your input!

 

Frogsmile, when I first saw it, I wondered if it was a marksman's badge - could this be worn by Warrant Officers?  

A possibility (and only that) is whether he was promoted to WO1 after the end of the war - I think medal rank had to be the highest held at close of hostilities didn't it?  I'm assuming by what you say that the WAFF wouldn't have let their attached WO2s wear Sam Brownes.

 

Cheers,

Clive

 

The crossed rifles marksman badge was more usually worn on the left forearm Clive, but I think you might have inadvertently touched on the solution in this case.

 

If subject soldier had previously been an Assistant Instructor of Musketry (certificated as ‘Hythe trained’ - and on the establishment assisting the Adjutant - who was also THE Musketry Instructor of each unit) then he would have been entitled to wear the crossed rifles beneath his badge of rank.

 

Just as in India, Colonial African units permitted their WOIIs to wear the Sam Browne as a mark of prestige for European senior other ranks parading and working with native troops (albeit not at public expense - theatre clothing regulations refer).  

 

It gave an officer like impression and, in Indian units, brought them in line with the native Viceroy commissioned officers (VCOs), who wore Sam Browne’s as a matter of course and yet were subordinate to European warrant officers.  Similar protocols applied in Africa, albeit without the VCOs.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Mark,

I was referring to the blemish/badge on the right lapel of the suited chap on the officers left. I’m not certain where the ladies chair fits in.

 

Simon

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I will ask the owner of the picture whether he can scan it at a higher resolution (rather than as a snapshot in a glazed frame), to sort out the badge/blemish question and maybe get some better definition on this intriguing uniform.

 

But if the accumulated wisdom is right, what it seems to show is James R.Pugh of Llangurig, Montgomeryshire, aged 22 in 1911, a pre-war Territorial with the Rhayader (Radnor) section of the MY, who first serves overseas as Sergeant 1971 (later 135327) and is attached to the 3rd Nigeria Regiment, WAFF in East Africa during 1917. 

 

He is a trained Assistant Instructor of Musketry, and rises to WO2 rank, while also wearing a Sam Browne - which would not have been unusual during his attachment to an African unit.  He is disembodied in 1919.   

 

That's excellent folks - I'm extremely grateful to you all.

 

Clive   

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3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

1 hour ago, clive_hughes said:

I will ask the owner of the picture whether he can scan it at a higher resolution (rather than as a snapshot in a glazed frame), to sort out the badge/blemish question and maybe get some better definition on this intriguing uniform.

 

But if the accumulated wisdom is right, what it seems to show is James R.Pugh of Llangurig, Montgomeryshire, aged 22 in 1911, a pre-war Territorial with the Rhayader (Radnor) section of the MY, who first serves overseas as Sergeant 1971 (later 135327) and is attached to the 3rd Nigeria Regiment, WAFF in East Africa during 1917. 

 

He is a trained Assistant Instructor of Musketry, and rises to WO2 rank, while also wearing a Sam Browne - which would not have been unusual during his attachment to an African unit.  He is disembodied in 1919.   

 

That's excellent folks - I'm extremely grateful to you all.

 

Clive   

 

 

Good team work.  May I just add that James appears to have had the unusual middle name  "Raw". 

Edited by Myrtle
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1 hour ago, mancpal said:

Mark,

I was referring to the blemish/badge on the right lapel of the suited chap on the officers left. I’m not certain where the ladies chair fits in.

 

Simon

Doh!

 

Rushing again and I misread your 'SWB' as 'SBR' and misinterpreted that as a Small Box Respirator at hip height, hence the chair business!  Not sure what on earth I was thinking about seeing SBRs in Radnorshire though - senior moment(s)!  :innocent:

 

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28 minutes ago, Myrtle said:

Interesting discussion on S

 

Good team work.  May I just add that James appears to have had the unusual middle name  "Raw". 

Not unusual in mid-Wales Myrtle.

Raw-Rees were a well known family in the North Cardiganshire area.

There was/is a chain of estate agents with that name.

One of the family was a Conservative parliamentary candidate for Ceredigion back in the 1980s, and earlier this decade some scurrilous allegations were made against another family member:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278627/Revealed-The-F1-lifestyle-Welsh-meat-factory-boss-accused-making-horse-kebabs-burgers.html

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33 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Not unusual in mid-Wales Myrtle.

Raw-Rees were a well known family in the North Cardiganshire area.

There was/is a chain of estate agents with that name.

One of the family was a Conservative parliamentary candidate for Ceredigion back in the 1980s, and earlier this decade some scurrilous allegations were made against another family member:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278627/Revealed-The-F1-lifestyle-Welsh-meat-factory-boss-accused-making-horse-kebabs-burgers.html

 

Thank you, that explains it. Unusual in Radnorshire but not in Cardiganshire, so after that clue I  discovered  that James's father William Hugh Pugh married Elizabeth Jane Raw from Cardiganshire. 

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12 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

I will ask the owner of the picture whether he can scan it at a higher resolution (rather than as a snapshot in a glazed frame), to sort out the badge/blemish question and maybe get some better definition on this intriguing uniform.

 

But if the accumulated wisdom is right, what it seems to show is James R.Pugh of Llangurig, Montgomeryshire, aged 22 in 1911, a pre-war Territorial with the Rhayader (Radnor) section of the MY, who first serves overseas as Sergeant 1971 (later 135327) and is attached to the 3rd Nigeria Regiment, WAFF in East Africa during 1917. 

 

He is a trained Assistant Instructor of Musketry, and rises to WO2 rank, while also wearing a Sam Browne - which would not have been unusual during his attachment to an African unit.  He is disembodied in 1919.   

 

That's excellent folks - I'm extremely grateful to you all.

 

Clive   

 

At that time there were less ‘career courses’ for cavalry and infantry NCOs than there are today and to be Hythe trained was highly prestigious and could make an NCOs career.  Generally the more bright, and/or better educated NCOs were selected by their units to go, as there were a finite number of places available.  The same situation applied to junior officers and for many years an officer had to possess a Hythe Certificate before he could be appointed as Adjutant.  The NCO holding a certificate and appointed as the units assistant instructor held position as a 2nd Class (of three) Staff Sergeant in the unit HQ and had the special privilege (along with trumpet/drum majors et al) of wearing the ‘first class’ of full dress clothing (close to officer quality and with extra gold braid).  As you might imagine his arm badge was highly prized as a badge of office.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Fascinating Frogsmile,

Do I take it the same applied to Yeomanry units?  How did the unit's own staff sergts. fit in with the attached Permanent Staff Instructors  or whatever they were called in those days?

 

Clive

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4 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

Fascinating Frogsmile,

Do I take it the same applied to Yeomanry units?  How did the unit's own staff sergts. fit in with the attached Permanent Staff Instructors  or whatever they were called in those days?

 

Clive

 

Generally all those above the rank of Squadron QMS were permanent staff instructors (attached and usually time-served regulars) and that always included the assistant (sergeant) Musketry Instructor.  There was a clear pecking order between the two groups of SNCO/WO, but there seldom seemed to be any resentment.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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