Lance Corporal J Wilkinson

[Quadey]

Hi, a friend of mine put a display in his shop window for the Centenary Remembrance Sunday.  This is one of the pictures displayed. He said it is his Gt Grandfather John Wilkinson. Looking at his Cap Badge, it would appear he was in the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. I can't see anything attached to his epaulets but what is the insignia directly above the Lance Corporal chevron?  I know it's not a brilliant angle and my friend doesn't have another photo of him other than this one, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

It's a formation badge above his chevron, usually the battalion and Brigade that he was in, formed from coloured shapes of wool felt.  These were recorded by the Imperial War Museum and some of the Forum's pals might be able to list those for the Loyal North Lancs.  One unit that wore such badges was the 1/5th Battalion.

You can learn more about the regiments efforts in WW1 here: https://www.loyalregiment.com/photo-identification/  I am sure that the website would like to have a copy of the photo of John Wilkinson if your friend agrees.

Edited 1 December , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Post 31 pg 2 of this thread will be of interest.

[Ashley1966]

My grandmother Frances Ashley nee Wilkinson was the youngest daughter of William and Martha Wilkinson and so was the sister of John Wilkinson service no 22694 John served as a lance corporal in the machine gun corps (infantry) and was killed in action 27/05/1918 aged just 25. As far as we know he has no known grave but is remembered on the Soissons Memorial France. 
My nan always said my dad was the image of her John and after seeing his photo for the first time I can see she was right. 

[caladonia]

Hello

Here is a photo of William Pye, 2-4th Batt, LN Lancs, 57th Div.

Taken from the IWM site, it shows the patches a bit clearer, a red diamond above a coy coloured stripe.

Note that he and L.Corp Wilkinson seem to have a coloured backing to their cap badge.

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, caladonia said:

Hello

Here is a photo of William Pye, 2-4th Batt, LN Lancs, 57th Div.

Taken from the IWM site, it shows the patches a bit clearer, a red diamond above a coy coloured stripe.

Note that he and L.Corp Wilkinson seem to have a coloured backing to their cap badge.

 

I think that the LNL regiment favoured a yellow backing to their cap badge as a link with the 47th Foot traditional facing colour. 

[caladonia]

Thank you Frogsmile for that info, I had assumed that it was just a red backing.

William

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/11/2022 at 21:16, caladonia said:

Thank you Frogsmile for that info, I had assumed that it was just a red backing.

William

I’m not 100% positive that they did in WW1, but they did later so I’m wondering when the practice first began.  Red was usually a feature of regiments with a Royal appellation.

Edited 29 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Quadey]

On 10/11/2022 at 14:37, caladonia said:

Hello

Here is a photo of William Pye, 2-4th Batt, LN Lancs, 57th Div.

Taken from the IWM site, it shows the patches a bit clearer, a red diamond above a coy coloured stripe.

Note that he and L.Corp Wilkinson seem to have a coloured backing to their cap badge.

 

Hi Caladonia, many thanks for this.  This fits in perfectly as we have just discovered that John was in the 2/4th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment and his Service Number was 203221.  We believe he was posted as acting Lance Corporal which we got information about from our local newspaper archives.  His Medals and Award Rolls sheet indicate he was a Private and it doesn't list him as a Lance Corporal at any stage. I will now show this to my friend and he will be delighted!

[Matlock1418]

On 01/12/2018 at 15:02, Quadey said:

Hi, a friend of mine put a display in his shop window for the Centenary Remembrance Sunday.  This is one of the pictures displayed. He said it is his Gt Grandfather John Wilkinson.

On 09/11/2022 at 22:53, Ashley1966 said:

My grandmother Frances Ashley nee Wilkinson was the youngest daughter of William and Martha Wilkinson and so was the sister of John Wilkinson service no 22694 John served as a lance corporal in the machine gun corps (infantry) and was killed in action 27/05/1918 aged just 25.

9 hours ago, Quadey said:

we have just discovered that John was in the 2/4th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment and his Service Number was 203221.  We believe he was posted as acting Lance Corporal which we got information about from our local newspaper archives.  His Medals and Award Rolls sheet indicate he was a Private and it doesn't list him as a Lance Corporal at any stage.

In reverse order:

Seeminly to potentially return to the OP ??: John Wilkinson, 6994, 203221, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment - there are two MIC and some pension records - showing he was discharged 19.5.19, eligible for a Silver War Badge, and claimed a disability pension from 20.5.19

The Army and Medal Office procedure, since a Lance-Corporal was an appointment for a Private rather than a rank, for medals was always recording on MIC and Rolls as/impressed with Private as this was his substantive rank.

The Ministry of Pensions commonly used Lance-Corporal - but seemingly not for 203221

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

The claim was handled in Region 3 [North West England] = A M[ilitary] claim for surname W[ilkinson] 11/- pw was initially received [a 40% disability rate for Pte/LCpl]  He was a single man born 1894 - also of 48b North Street, Clitheroe, Lancs.  

The CWGC however also tended to commonly record a man with a Lance-Corporal stripe at death as such https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1760727/john-wilkinson

As for this John WILKINSON, 22694, MGC - sad to note, but interesting to see, there are also pension records available - here is one of them [the most complete and likely most interesting card]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

We can see he was Reported dead. [so perhaps some uncertainty for a while] The ICRC PoW records have an enquiry about him https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1335475/3/2 but Negatif envoi [i.e. nothing found]

The thereon-mentioned James Thomas DEVINE, 8442 & 33592, Cheshire Regiment may also be of further interest [he has linked MoP pension cards]

Much is self-explanatory but I would be happy to later provide some further interpretation of what is recorded on pension cards if necessary/of further interest - just ask.

John WILKINSON(s) = It might appear similarly-named but different I think.

M

Edited 29 November , 2022 by Matlock1418
tweak

[Quadey]

Thank you for this Matlock1418.  In the newspaper cuttings we have of Pte/Lance Corporal John Wilkinson, he is first listed as being in the Agricultural Corps and then a second article later describes him as being a Private in the 3rd Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Rgt and both articles listed him as living at 17 St. Mary's Street, Clitheroe. The third article lists him as now being a Lance Corporal with the 3rd Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Rgt and now living at 48b North Street, Clitheroe.  Living at 19 Wilkin Square, Clitheroe has not been found before for him, so I shall pass that on.  Interestingly, both North Street and Wilkin Square were demolished after the war because they were classed as a slum areas.

In the photo of John you can clearly see the sleeve markings are that of the 2/4th Loyal North Lancs Rgt from the post by Caladonia, so it is highly probable he went to the 2/4th Loyal's as a Lance Corporal rather than as a Private.  One of my Gt Uncles was initially a Lance Corporal with the 3rd Battalion East Lancashire Rgt but when he was posted to the 11th Battalion East Lancashire's as, "In the field", he was posted as a Private and he remained so for the rest of the war.  I wonder if this picture was taken at home immediately prior to him going to his posting and maybe once in the field he reverted to Private again like my Gt Uncle?

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Quadey said:

Thank you for this Matlock1418.  In the newspaper cuttings we have of Pte/Lance Corporal John Wilkinson, he is first listed as being in the Agricultural Corps and then a second article later describes him as being a Private in the 3rd Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Rgt and both articles listed him as living at 17 St. Mary's Street, Clitheroe. The third article lists him as now being a Lance Corporal with the 3rd Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Rgt and now living at 48b North Street, Clitheroe.  Living at 19 Wilkin Square, Clitheroe has not been found before for him, so I shall pass that on.  Interestingly, both North Street and Wilkin Square were demolished after the war because they were classed as a slum areas.

In the photo of John you can clearly see the sleeve markings are that of the 2/4th Loyal North Lancs Rgt from the post by Caladonia, so it is highly probable he went to the 2/4th Loyal's as a Lance Corporal rather than as a Private.  One of my Gt Uncles was initially a Lance Corporal with the 3rd Battalion East Lancashire Rgt but when he was posted to the 11th Battalion East Lancashire's as, "In the field", he was posted as a Private and he remained so for the rest of the war.  I wonder if this picture was taken at home immediately prior to him going to his posting and maybe once in the field he reverted to Private again like my Gt Uncle?

Both of the 3rd Battalions that you mention were Reserve Battalions from since well before the war (ex Militia) and used as training and holding units for men before they’re sent to battalions in the field.  Wounded men in the medical recovery chain would also be administered by those battalions.  Lance  corporal could be a very temporary position to hold and it was designed for expedience (always described as the easiest authority to lose).  Each reinforcement draft would whenever possible be commanded by an accompanying officer, or in extremis a senior-non-commissioned-officer, most commonly a sergeant.  To assist these with administration a few men in the draft might already be lance corporals, or newly appointed to that position with the full understanding that they would have to revert upon arrival at their destination.  Unless a man held a substantive rank he could not expect to keep it at his new unit in the field, which had to maintain control of its own structure, command, and administrative arrangements.