RFA Training sites

[wmfinch]

Hello All,

 

I'm seeking opinions please.  My Grandfather No. 199319 Bombardier Reginald Charles Evans was from Cheltenham, Glos and was called up for training during January 1917.  He ended up with D/276 Battery, 55th West Lancashire Division, but I am beginning to believe that he never went near Merseyside for training and was purely allocated to a unit that required more men. Certainly, one of the men he fought with came from Ireland and was trained in Ireland before being allocated to D/276 Battery.  Those facts were supplied by a descendant of that soldier and have made me have a major re-think about my own Grandfather's training.  If I am correct, does anyone know where someone from Gloucestershire would have been trained as a Gun Layer?  Also, would he have been allocated to a unit before leaving for France or after he had landed in France?

 

Any thoughts /facts will be much appreciated.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

 

 

[JulianR]

One thing to note is that he would not just have trained as a gun layer, he would be required to know the work of all the positions on the gun, although at least initially he would not be expected to do all of them.  No doubt at some stage he would have been sent back to a Base Camp for more training in the positions requiring higher knowledge.

 

At this stage of the war it is most likely that he went to France and was posted where needed.  See the LLT website for a brief overview of 55th Division History.

 

The Medal Rolls have him as a Lance Bombardier, not a Bombardier in the Royal Field Artillery

 

Julian

[David26]

Wayne,

 

I agree that he may well have never been near Merseyside.  What you say about his call up details, together with his service number, suggest to me that he was not a TF soldier but was conscripted and so in all probability, as Julian says, would have joined D/276 as a replacement - they being already in France. 

 

    David.

[wmfinch]

Hello Julian and David,

 

Many thanks for your replies.  Certainly the original men serving in D/276 Battery were Territorials and when they were re-numbered, their new numbers started 681xxx.  My Grandfather's number wasn't in that range, so he was definitely a replacement or an addition when the Battery was increased from 4 to 6 guns in mid 1917.  Good point about him being a Lance Bombardier :-).  Regarding the training, I agree they were trained in all aspects of gunnery.  I have been trying to get to grips with gun laying (I have an original gunsight and clinometers), and find it rather confusing to say the least.  I think he must have received specialist training somewhere.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

[David Porter]

Wayne,

 

His number places him joining No. 3 Depot (or Reseve Brigade) RFA, Hilsea on January 17 or 18, 1917. I suggest you look at the surviving service record of 199540 Alfred William Vardy who joined the same place on January 19, 1917 and was subsequently posted to 55th DAC then A/275. This could show a likely path and time frame for your grandfather. The DACs got men posted from Base Depot and they were sometimes posted onto brigades a day or two later. .

[wmfinch]

David, thank you so much!  I'll do as you suggest.  That confirms my Grandfather wasn't trained in Merseyside.

 

Do you think he was trained as a Gun Layer from the start or after he had learnt all of the basics?  Perhaps he showed an aptitude for Gun Laying during early training?  He definitely wore a trade badge.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

[David Porter]

26 minutes ago, wmfinch said:

Perhaps he showed an aptitude for Gun Laying during early training?

 

Yes, I'd go with that hypothesis as you don't know who would be good at something unless they have been practiced in it for a while.

There would be many joining 3rd Depot RFA, Hilsea, each day as the numbers suggest, and not many got a layers badge.

Also by the end of his service there was a promotion.

[wmfinch]

Thank you so much David.  I really appreciate your info and opinion.  Hilsea it is!

[David Porter]

2 hours ago, wmfinch said:

 Hilsea it is!

 

If you look at the service record of Alfred Vardy, he was actually posted to 13th Reserve Battery, 3A Reserve Brigade RFA, the day after he arrived at Hilsea. This Reserve Brigade moved from Hilsea to Larkhill on March 20, 1917.

[JulianR]

Gun laying is part of the basic training, along with bringing the gun into and out of action, handling ammunition etc., so everybody has to do it, some maybe more proficient than others.  The idea is that a gun can be in action for extended periods of time, and men need to eat, sleep etc., and only having one man able to do a specific job is not a good idea.  Furthermore, you need to take into account likely casualties, you cannot be out of action because the No. 2 on the detachment is wounded and there is no replacement, someone else needs to take over in that case.  I suspect that he showed an aptitude but also in the normal course of events he could be on ammo resupply, covering for the No.1 whilst he was off somewhere else, doing No. 3, as a break from laying.

 

The term gunnery also extends to work in the command post, observation post, survey and signals, and I doubt that he would have been trained in these aspects as well, until he became a SNCO.

[wmfinch]

Julian, your info really fills in a lot of gaps in my knowledge.  Thank you!

 

One last question, were the men also trained in the use of different types of guns?  I know for sure from the Jeudwine papers that during the latter part of the Battle of Cambrai, the 55th West Lancashire Div lent most of their 4.5 Howitzers to another Div, and they only had two available on the 30th Nov 1917.  Possibly, 18 Pounders had to be used by the 'D' Batteries instead???

 

I so wish my Grandfather was still around to answer the questions!

 

V/R

 

Wayne

 

 

[JulianR]

Basically in answer to your last question no, different types of gun have different procedures, and it does take time to convert to another type.  It can be done, of course, but would take at least a week of intensive training to be reasonably competent.

[wmfinch]

Thank you Julian, those two Howitzers I mentioned were likey to be the guns that were in use when D/276 Battery's Sgt Gourley won the V.C.  However, the Battery Commander's report of the action on the 30th Nov 1917, purely mentions 'Guns', and two of the other eleven men decorated always maintained that they were 18 pounders.  Hence my question.  The historic view is that they were 4.5 inch Howitzers, but at least one more trip to Liverpool Library to search the records is needed, especially as one of the two men was the second Sergeant who was in action all day!

 

V/R

 

Wayne

[MaxD]

The orders for SOS barrage lines issued just a few days later on 9 Dec 1917 is clear that A B and C were 18 pounders and D was 4.5 Hows.  There is nothing earlier that says D had swapped equipment recently.  (Bde war diary Dec 1917)

 

Max

[JulianR]

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/REL46223/screen/6071914.JPG&imgrefurl=https://www.awm.gov.au/index.php/collection/C1300573&h=536&w=640&tbnid=kyE7PL40HM0L5M:&q=4.5+inch+howitzer+ww1&tbnh=167&tbnw=200&usg=AI4_-kS8HwcmZxAlqLCP74uwhhJQ7IvTqQ&vet=12ahUKEwi77Pn04PneAhUEa8AKHeBfByUQ_B0wEHoECAYQBg..i&docid=NmSo085eWeIICM&itg=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi77Pn04PneAhUEa8AKHeBfByUQ_B0wEHoECAYQBg

 

The link above shows a 4.5" howitzer, so having read the citation for Gourley it is not inconceivable that they got the gun out of the pit to engage the Germans.

[JulianR]

Try this link and it will show the design differences between an 18-pdr and 4.5" howitzer

 

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/english_plateforme.html

 

Julian

[wmfinch]

Hello Max and Julian, my Grandfather was one of the other men who were decorated on that fateful day, so I am always grateful for new  info and opinions.  The info about the lack of 4.5 inch Howitzers was found in Major General Jeudwine's papers in response to an enquiry that took place after the 30th Nov 1917. 

 

This thread has taught me a lot, and I now know where my Grandfather was trained and I can add that to my research papers. I also think the info about the training gives evidence that the guns used on the 30th Nov 1917 were actually 4.5 inch Howitzers.  Not definitive proof, as Sgt Gourley and some of the other men were originally Territorials who may have also been trained in the use of 18 pounders over the years.  Major Hudson's report of the action also states that the men were firing with open sights as the enemy was only 400 yards away.  It appears that the barrels of both types of guns could be sufficiently depressed, so that doesn't answer the question either.

 

Definitely back to Liverpool Library to search through more papers!

 

With grateful thanks once again.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

[JulianR]

I think you would have to trawl the TF Battery history to see what guns they had been equipped with pre-War, but yes it is a possibility that Sgt. Gourley knew about 18-pdrs.  Just looked up the 18-pdr on the ever unreliable Wikipedia and the amount of de[pression is 5 degrees.

[MaxD]

Glad to help but looking at the brigade and the Commander Royal Artillery diary I am in no doubt that D Battery guns were 4.5s.

 

Max

[MaxD]

Should perhaps just add that re-training experienced members of an 18 pounder detachment to serve a 4.5 inch Howitzer was no big deal. Probably the most difficult task was for the No 1 to knit the individuals together into a smoothly operating detachment each man, including the layer, carrying out a drill very similar to that he was used to on the smaller equipment.

(Anyone who knows what ELXLE means will I am sure agree)

 

Max

[daggers]

That takes me back, though I had to think hard to remember the hookum.

D