Shell info please

[Guest]

My friend has this shell casing kicking around in his office and I was hoping someone could make some better sense of what's written on it, I don't understand where the'Goeben' comes into it.

[trajan]

Lovely piece with lots of history! The Goeben was the German ship handed over to the Ottoman Empire at the start of WW1, becoming the Yavuz Sultan Selim. Not certain about one of here guns became "Jericho Jane" though! Others among our naval pals will know...

 

There is an account here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Goeben

[assafx]

I don't know how the goben got into it but as far as i know, Jericho Jane was 15cm Krupp K16 field gun .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Kanone_16

what is the diameter and length of the case?

[ServiceRumDiluted]

There was a few of these type items on a well known online auction site a few years ago. The engraving was very high quality, almost like it had been done by modern machinery to add 'historical' interest to an ordinary case. I would be a little suspicious and research the items provenance if possible before attaching too much significance to the text on the item. Hard to tell from a photo, but bear the possibility in mind that this could be a 'retro-enhanced' item.

 

Edited 25 November , 2018 by ServiceRumDiluted

[Gunner Bailey]

8 hours ago, ServiceRumDiluted said:

There was a few of these type items on a well known online auction site a few years ago. The engraving was very high quality, almost like it had been done by modern machinery to add 'historical' interest to an ordinary case. I would be a little suspicious and research the items provenance if possible before attaching too much significance to the text on the item. Hard to tell from a photo, but bear the possibility in mind that this could be a 'retro-enhanced' item.

 

Tend to agree. I've seen hundred of pieces of trench art and that engraving looks suspiciously good and possibly modern.

[Guest]

On 25/11/2018 at 10:51, assafx said:

I don't know how the goben got into it but as far as i know, Jericho Jane was 15cm Krupp K16 field gun .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Kanone_16

what is the diameter and length of the case?

 The diameter of the case is 159mm or 6 1/4inch. And it's 723mm or 28 1/2inch.

Please see the inserted better photo with more details. 

[trajan]

Yes, there doesn't seem to be a problem with identifying the calibre and the type of gun it was used for, but the attribution to the Goeben does not fit. And "Jericho Jane" was a famous artillery piece which, with the precise nature of the inscribing, does make it rather suspicious. Now, if it was inscribed "Brought back from Palestine" then that would ease off the suspicion - but still not eliminate the Goeben allusion!

[Michael Haselgrove]

Without commenting on the originality or otherwise of the engraving in question I am interested to know when "shell case" came into use instead of "cartridge" or "cartridge case".  Anyone have any idea?  I have found "cartridge" in a number of reference books published in England and "cartridge case" in one published in America in 1916 but cannot find "shell case" anywhere.

Michael.   

[MikB]

When I was a kid in the 50s, and such things were sometimes traded in the playground, 'cartridge case' meant smallarms, typically .22, .303, 9mm, .455, 12-bore or .410.

We used 'shell case' for artillery brass, which was more unusual.

 

It may be technically unsupported by official military or manufacturing nomenclature, but everybody knows what it means.

[peregrinvs]

In my capacity as an ordnance collector I don’t find the term ‘shell case’ particularly objectionable as it’s a commonly used term and it’s fairly obvious what is being referred to. E.g if I’m googling for information on a particular cartridge case I’ll generally start with ‘shell case’.

 

I’ll admit to a mild dislike of referring to a cartridge case as a ‘shell’ alone though as they are two different things with different purposes.

[SiegeGunner]

1 hour ago, MikB said:

When I was a kid in the 50s, and such things were sometimes traded in the playground, 'cartridge case' meant smallarms, typically .22, .303, 9mm, .455, 12-bore or .410.

We used 'shell case' for artillery brass, which was more unusual.

 

It may be technically unsupported by official military or manufacturing nomenclature, but everybody knows what it means.

 

My late friend TonyE was a stickler for correct terminology, but didn't object (much) to (artillery) 'shell case'.  He would get qute agitated, though, about 'bullet case/casing' or 'shell' in the American usage, for a smallarms cartridge.  

[chaz]

possibly normal people confuse shells and cartridges. shell cases would appear correct as shells were stuck on the top. a cartridge is fired from a 12 bore or similar.

not saying its right or wrong just summing up Joe Publics thoughts.

cartridge forks on a motorcycle contain the workings, 12 bore carts contain the shot a shell case has the pointy bit on the end.

[Michael Haselgrove]

Thanks for the interesting replies.  I suppose the small point I was wondering about was whether someone in, say, 1920 would have had the cartridge in question here engraved "Shell Case of" instead of, perhaps, "Cartridge from".  

Regards,

Michael.

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Michael Haselgrove said:

Thanks for the interesting replies.  I suppose the small point I was wondering about was whether someone in, say, 1920 would have had the cartridge in question here engraved "Shell Case of" instead of, perhaps, "Cartridge from".  

Regards,

Michael.

You actually raise a good point which I missed the first time through! I see your argument - it's not proof of more recent origin, but it has some substance.

 

The cartridge in its case would've been loaded separately in any navy's guns of such a calibre. 'Shell case' would've arguably implied fixed ammunition.

And in whatever case, Goeben carried 15cm secondary guns, which at the time would've been known to the Allies as 'five-nines', not usually six inch.

 

Afternote:- Though I now note from the contemporary "Sea Fights Of The Great War" that description of 15 cm guns as 'six inch' did have some currency.

Edited 8 December , 2018 by MikB