jbenjami Posted 24 November , 2018 Share Posted 24 November , 2018 Hello, Could anyone help me with Roman Catholic clergy who served on the Western Front please? I have a couple of questions ... Firstly, I would like to find the name of the Roman Catholic pardre attached to the 151st brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division who would have looked after the men of the 6th Durham Light Infantry in October and November 1916 - I have a Catholic soldier who was killed with that unit in the attack on the Butte de Warlencourt on November 5th. David Blake at the Chaplains museum didn't know who the Catholic pardre was but told me that the Anglican chaplain who served the 8th DLI in the same brigade, was Cyril Lomas, so if anyone has access to his diary, it might mention the Catholic pardre. Also, a question on a different Roman Catholic pardre, - Reverend Wilfred Pickering was commissioned in June 1915 as Temporary Chaplain to the Forces, 4th Class (Gazette) which I understood would normally mean the rank of Captain. But he was a Lieutenant - can anyone clarify please? More puzzling still are his medals, or lack of them. Reverend Pickering does not appear in the medal index cards or on the medals rolls. David Blake at the Chaplain's museum has been superb in double checking my information and says he definitely went to France on the 9th January 1916 and was still there to the end of the war. I think he may have been with the Royal Engineers though I can't find the reference that made me think that. Anyway it remains a mystery to both of David Blake and myself as to why he isn't listed for medals. I understand that officers had to apply for their medals and many chose not to, but does that mean he would not have been on the medal roll too? I sort of assumed he would be on there anyway, simply by virtue of being entitled to them if he wanted them. His papers have survived but I'm not sure when I can next get up to Kew so would be grateful of your thoughts: Reference: WO 339/40778 Description: Reverend Wilfred PICKERING. Royal Army Chaplains Dept. Date: 1915-1919 Held by: The National Archives, Kew Former reference in its original department: 108442 Best regards, Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 24 November , 2018 Admin Share Posted 24 November , 2018 Hi Jane, 're the officer records you can employ a researcher who will copy them for you. There are a number of such available. The one I use has cost me just £4.50 for some 40 pages of records. https://www.arcre.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 24 November , 2018 Share Posted 24 November , 2018 Hi Jane, The rank of Captain was automatic for Chaplains, so as far as I am aware his rank as Lieutenant is not possible. Where did you find this information? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithfazzani Posted 24 November , 2018 Share Posted 24 November , 2018 Checking RC chaplains can be a bit of a challenge as there is no equivalent of Crockfords. I believe that in most cases RC Dioceses would have some record so if you know where an individual came from that might help. Also if they were a member of an "order" Jesuit, Dominican etc I know that there are some records available. Other than those routes Kew seems your only solution. As in all cases of WW1 men it is much easier to trace someone if they were killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 November , 2018 Share Posted 24 November , 2018 (edited) Quote Firstly, I would like to find the name of the Roman Catholic pardre attached to the 151st brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division who would have looked after the men of the 6th Durham Light Infantry in October and November 1916 - I have a Catholic soldier who was killed with that unit in the attack on the Butte de Warlencourt on November 5th. David Blake at the Chaplains museum didn't know who the Catholic pardre was but told me that the Anglican chaplain who served the 8th DLI in the same brigade, was Cyril Lomas, so if anyone has access to his diary, it might mention the Catholic pardre. I have a lot of info on the 6th DLI (website in my signature) but nothing on any catholic chaplain's, I've never comes across the name in the diary - the original chaplains assigned to the 6th DLI at the outbreak of war were all CoE to as far as I know - Rev J W Barker, Rev Frank T Woods and Rev Henry George Shaddick. Shaddick went over to France in April 15 with the battalion. Craig Edited 24 November , 2018 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbenjami Posted 25 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2018 Thank you one and all for your contributions, even where there seems little to be gleaned, at least I'm reassured that I'm not missing something obvious. I will definitely have a look at the researcher option - certainly the fees are more than reasonable compared to what Kew might charge. As for the rank of Lieutenant, I've rechecked and that is my error - it came from a link that Kew had attached as a suggestion but it is a different soldier. Thank you for that clarification. What are your thoughts on him not being in the medal roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 Rawlinson's Papers (held at Downside) might help; the archives of the Archdiocese of Westminster, as Cardinal Bourne was de facto Epicopus Castrenis until almost the end of 1917, when Bishop Keatinge took on the task (minus the Royal Navy). The situation is complicated by the fact that Ireland and Scotland had (have) their own episcopal conferences; and then there is the matter of the fifteen or so (I would suggest - the number is something of a guess) Religious Congregations who would have provided chaplains. There could be any number of reasons why he did not claim his medals; apart from personal disinclination he may well have been sent overseas, a not unlikely scenario i a member of a religious congregation, for example; or he may have been Irish, with the various complications that could have arisen from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 (edited) Jane, This article in The Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail from 5th May 1946 https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000378%2f19460405%2f062 indicates that Father William Pickering was priest-in-charge at South Moor St. Mary's R.C. Church, when he was killed in a road accident. The 1939 Register states he was born on 14th December 1883, and the 1911 census shows he was born in Tudhoe, County Durham. Regards, Alf McM Edited 25 November , 2018 by alf mcm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 So that means that he was from the Diocese of Hexham and Newcastle, so its archivist may be able to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbenjami Posted 25 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2018 Thank you very much for all your help. That's great. Yes, Wilfred Pickering was born in Tudhoe, Durham and I have applied to have the researcher copy his service papers for me, using the link provided above so thank you so much for that. It would be great if he was the pardre serving with the 151st brigade / 6th DLI as it was his brother who was killed at Warlencourt but we'll have to wait and see I guess. I understand that many officers did not apply for their medals so perhaps that explains him not being on the medal roll. Thanks once again - as always, you have all come up trumps with lots of avenues to think about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbenjami Posted 18 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 18 December , 2018 Just to further update you all and thank you for your assistance. I now have the service papers for Wilfred Pickering. (Wonderful copying service provided by Lee Richards - £4.40 for 37 pages if I am allowed to say that!) The file is fascinating but not entirely helpful. It shows he went out to Gallipoli in Mat 1915 but returned in September 1915 to be I treated in York for enteric fever. He returned to service in January and was posted to the Western Front - but most of the file is then concerned with his demob. in September 1919. There is no indication either way to suggest whether he stayed at the base depot or was attached to a brigade somewhere. I have applied to the diocesan archives and am waiting for a reply. best regards Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 18 December , 2018 Share Posted 18 December , 2018 (edited) Hi Jane A couple of articles on Catholic chaplains: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09637494.2011.546504 Has a lot of useful references that might help. http://www.beaumont-union.co.uk/pdfs/CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS in THE GREAT WAR WW1.pdf Is fairly brief but has the great quote: “If you are Catholic, Irish and a Jesuit; Three good reasons for not awarding a VC.” -nice! If the links don't work I can PM the articles. all the best Dom. Edited 18 December , 2018 by domsim spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 December , 2018 Share Posted 18 December , 2018 Mate, I know away from your question but in the AIF we tried to have at lest one of each type of chaplain in each Brigade. These were at the begining of the war attached to each sub unit (Bn's or Regts) in that Brigade, while in later years they stayed at Brigade HQ or at the Field Ambulance, and moved down to units when needed (like Sunday services) . Remember the RC's were not given the same rights as Prodys, possibly the Irish conection or come Catholic left over from the days of Henry the VIII. We (Australia) had a lot of trouble here during the war over this. Its and interesting area not talked about much any more Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 18 December , 2018 Share Posted 18 December , 2018 It might be worth searching the archives of The Tablet where I have, to my surprise, tracked down several naval surgeons who turned out to be RC:- http://archive.thetablet.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 19 December , 2018 Share Posted 19 December , 2018 The situation seems to have been at least two chaplains to a brigade, tho' establishment numbers would allow more. Benedict Williamson, for example, was an RC Chaplain in the 49th Div: he 'messed with 1/5th D of W's between July 1917 and early 1918, when the ORBAT of the divisions was changed and he shifted to the 47th Division, but operated throughout the brigade and with the Field Ambulance(s) as appropriate. Generally speaking, you would have at least one RC padre per brigade. On the other hand, he helped out elsewhere, e.g. with Australian troops and with the 32nd Division Fd Ambulances. Re RCs and VCs, my reading of the situation is that the RC ecclesiastical authorities were as opposed to awarding them to RC padres as anyone, if not more so. DSOs and MCs, fine: VCs not so much. So far as Bourne was concerned, the duty of an RC Chaplain was to administer the sacraments (of which they had more than the Protestant denominations), which would (should? - not all were perfect!) take them into areas of great danger so as to administer them, e.g. Extreme Unction (as it was then usually called) and so forth. For what it is worth, he had a perfectly amicable relationships with the other denomination chaplains and. indeed, with the CofE senior chaplain of the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbenjami Posted 19 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 19 December , 2018 Thank you again one and all for your input. There are lots of things to add to the general picture and more questions to ask I am awaiting a further reply from David Blake and also from Hexham and Newcastle Diocese. Is there a DLI museum anymore? But I am getting a fuller picture all the time - utterly fascinating aspect of the conflict that I must admit to not knowing much about at all previously. Thank you. Dom, I have been able to access the second of the articles you sent me but hit a paywall with the first. if you do happen to have it in full text and can email to me I'd be most interested - thank you. I have a final more general question to ask if I may about church parades. The 6th DLI war diaries mentions a number of church parades during my Catholic soldier's time with that unit and I know they were compulsory. But, how did this work in practice - Was it one big service for everyone and totally interdenominational? If so, who would lead the service if a number of pardres from different denominations were present - would they all contribute a section? Or did they spilt off into smaller denominational groups if their own minister was present? What would happen if there was no pardre of a particular denomination present? Would Catholic soldiers receive sacrament from an Anglican priest for instance? Or were these church parades non sacramental and based more on hymns and psalms and preaching. Just in terms of time allocated for the soldiers to attend, I can't imagine there would be an Anglican one first, followed by a Catholic, and then a further Presbyterian or Jewish service or whatever. I understand they weren't very popular at the best of times. Obviously, there are hundreds of accounts where soldiers attended in dozens or in hundreds with officers too, where sacrament was given and baptisms and confirmations undertaken which clearly were personal choice - and that goes for all denominations in a variety of locations though there was some tension about Anglicans holding services in Catholic churches, even those in ruins. But were those sorts of services completely separate to the compulsory church parades and therefore voluntarily attended in the soldier's own time? Thanks as always Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 19 December , 2018 Share Posted 19 December , 2018 Purely anecdotal, but somewhere (possibly in the notes to In Parenthesis) David Jones writes of the impact that seeing a RC chaplain celebrating mass behind the lines had on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 19 December , 2018 Share Posted 19 December , 2018 (edited) I have just had a quick word with David Blake at the Army Chaplaincy Museum at Amport House; he says that, although there are certain aspects they don't deal with, the Museum does cover RC chaplaincy too. Tel. 01264 773144 ext 4248. Edited 19 December , 2018 by seaJane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 18 hours ago, jbenjami said: I have a final more general question to ask if I may about church parades. The 6th DLI war diaries mentions a number of church parades during my Catholic soldier's time with that unit and I know they were compulsory. But, how did this work in practice - Was it one big service for everyone and totally interdenominational? If so, who would lead the service if a number of pardres from different denominations were present - would they all contribute a section? Or did they spilt off into smaller denominational groups if their own minister was present? What would happen if there was no pardre of a particular denomination present? Would Catholic soldiers receive sacrament from an Anglican priest for instance? Or were these church parades non sacramental and based more on hymns and psalms and preaching. RCs had separate services as a general rule (I would say almost always). certainly did NOT receive communion from Anglicans or anyone else. Because RCs had the reserved sacrament, RC padres distributed communion anywhere - trench, pill box, field, bunker, hall, church - wherever. The whole issue of the reserved sacrament was a major one amongst Anglican clergy (in particular there was a major row within the Diocese of London). Theologically, communion/eucharist had a far greater significance amongst RCs than (most) protestant/reformed churches: but one has to be careful about being too sweeping - anglo-catholic Anglicans much closer to the RC viewpoint, for example, low church anglicans much further away. Interdenominational services were a thing of the future. On the other hand, padres of all denominations did work together in, e.g. Fd Ambulances, CCS etc etc. But when it came to matters liturgical/services, definitely RCs did their own thing. (Burial services were conducted by whoever happened to e present, depending on circumstances; just reading of several burials in same place by Benedict Williamson (RC) and Padre Watts (Presbyterian) during Third Ypres - both read their own burial service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 I have taken the liberty of amending the typo on the thread title. Keith Roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 Thanks Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertb Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 Jane, Many of your questions are answered in "God and the British Soldier. Religion and the British Army in the First and Second World Wars." by Michael Snape (2005) ISBN 0415334527. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 On 19/12/2018 at 01:36, nigelcave said: The situation seems to have been at least two chaplains to a brigade, tho' establishment numbers would allow more. There were four chaplains to a brigade: one C of E, one RC, one Free Church (usually Presbyterian) and one more of the denomination "to which the majority of the men belonged". For divisional troops there were five, the extra one being another of the majority denomination. All seventeen were shown as on the establishment of divisional HQ. Hospitals and CCSs had chaplains attached in groups of three: one C of E, one RC and one Free Church. Originally the senior C of E chaplain was in administrative charge, but later the non-C of E chaplains were organised as a second parallel system. Chaplains were not officially attached to battalions as medical officers were, but it appears that they were attached informally to look after the pastoral and non-liturgical needs of the men, since some diaries refer to a "battalion chaplain." Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 The book 'Priests in Uniform - Catholic Military Chaplains in the First World War' by James Hagerty is very good. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=PRIESTS+IN+UNIFORM Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 20 December , 2018 Share Posted 20 December , 2018 This book has some interesting info re the differences in practices between Catholic and Anglican churches. https://www.jesuit.ie/books/irish-jesuit-chaplains-first-world-war/ Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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