Unknown regiment - boer war/ww1

[Nickowen]

I have been given a photo album by my dad which my grandad had pasted down in generations, I now need to locate the regiment of the attached photos to find out if I can put names to them from my ancestry tree.

 

Are these London Irish, Irish Guards or Volunteer regiment?? I don't know. Can anyone help? My ancestors came from Camberwell London and surrounding areas.

[FROGSMILE]

London Irish Rifles, a volunteer regiment that between 1908 and 1916 was absorbed as a battalion of the London Regiment. Their collar badge was a 3-leafed shamrock.  The uppermost figure is a colour sergeant and the second figure a boy bugler.

 

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

Father and son? Look at the  eyes. 

Frogsmile second photo down, one arm crossed rifles has a crown the other not to my eye. Comments please? 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Scalyback said:

Father and son? Look at the  eyes. 

Frogsmile second photo down, one arm crossed rifles has a crown the other not to my eye. Comments please? 

 

The colour sergeants of rifle regiments wore a different badge to the rest of the line and the Foot Guards.  This was because they had no colours. Instead, above their 3-stripes they wore a badge comprising a double bugle, crossed swords and crown.  This badge was only worn in full dress and in working dress such as SD the universal 3-stripes and crown was worn without further adornment.  Before 1908 the badge was even more elaborate and rendered on a large patch as per the photo that began this thread.

 

Similarly the buglers of rifle regiments had a unique badge of a double rather than single bugle.

 

I agree that there is a look of father and son.

 

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

I thank you. Now see it is different to crossed rifles and crown. I blame a large lunch.

[Nickowen]

Hi

 

Thank you for the replies. Are they from the London Irish??. Would these have been world war 1?

 

Thanks

[IPT]

11 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

Father and son? Look at the  eyes. 

1

 

I've got no way of dating the uniforms, (except the adult gets older), so i'm only assuming that the boy isn't the same chap in an earlier photo.

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Nickowen said:

Hi

 

Thank you for the replies. Are they from the London Irish??. Would these have been world war 1?

 

Thanks

 

Yes!!! London Irish, as stated in post #2.  The dress shown is pre-WW1.  The slouch hat worn by the boy remained in use for field dress until 1905.

 

See enclosed for an example of the more elaborate, pre-1908 colour sergeant badge.

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

1 minute ago, IPT said:

 

I've got no way of dating the uniforms, (except the adult gets older), so i'm only assuming that the boy isn't the same chap in an earlier photo.

 

Pre war as frogsmile mentions but the age and cross  over of uniforms make father and son likely. Sergeant with boy entry son. 

[Nickowen]

Thank you for the information. I will see if I can contact London Irish in Camberwell to see if they have any records of boer war. Worth a shot.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Nickowen said:

Thank you for the information. I will see if I can contact London Irish in Camberwell to see if they have any records of boer war. Worth a shot.

 

The adult shown clearly had long service in the London Irish as a part-time volunteer citizen soldier rather than ex regular.  His medal is the Volunteer Service Medal.  See enclosed.

 

In the lowermost photo, with grey hair and wearing a great coat, he had reached the position of battalion Quartermaster Sergeant.  

 

The photo of the boy bugler is contemporary with the photo of the adult colour sergeant.

 

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

Also the reserve in various forms have father  son in units. Easier to arrange post Napoleonic to now than regulars. 

[Nickowen]

I have found that london irsih was called 16th Middlesex regiment before ww1 and that they were formed at the freemasons tavern. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/11/2018 at 22:35, Scalyback said:

Also the reserve in various forms have father  son in units. Easier to arrange post Napoleonic to now than regulars. 

 

Boy entrants continued in regular infantry battalions and cavalry regiments until the early 1930s, and frequently involved father and son(s).  After that year boy entrants were trained in separate and specialised units better focused upon their age and concomitant needs..

 I do not know when boy entrants ceased in Territorial battalions, but probably around about the same time.

Edited 4 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Nickowen said:

I have found that london irsih was called 16th Middlesex regiment before ww1 and that they were formed at the freemasons tavern. 

 

They were 16th Middlesex before 1908, at which point the London Regiment absorbed them.

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

Boy entrants continued in regular battalions until 1922 and frequently involved father and son(s).  After that year boys were trained in separate and specialised units.

 

 I do not know when it ceased in Territorial battalions.

 

Unofficially not stopped until the new recruitment process. Dad claimed son, I was the first to walk away in four generations to  another unit. Hence my emphasis on reserve. 

 Regulations changed from time to time but I joined  at 17 and with the  eccentric nature of MOD regulations considered a "trained" soldier a few months later. Still plenty of time even in late 90s to have junior TA soldier with Sgt/ WO dad. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

 

Unofficially not stopped until the new recruitment process. Dad claimed son, I was the first to walk away in four generations to  another unit. Hence my emphasis on reserve. 

 Regulations changed from time to time but I joined  at 17 and with the  eccentric nature of MOD regulations considered a "trained" soldier a few months later. Still plenty of time even in late 90s to have junior TA soldier with Sgt/ WO dad. 

 

 

Yes I understand, but I was not referring to father and son serving together as being regulated, but merely the existence of ‘boy entrants’ as a formal and legal means of recruitment direct into units.  It was connected with the school leaving age and ended after WW1 as I have explained.  One had to enlist direct from the earliest school leaving point AND be under 18 to be eligible as a boy entrant, for whom there were special terms and conditions of service.  I was just agreeing with you that many of those boy entrants were the sons of serving soldiers, both regular and ‘auxiliary forces’ (as Reserve soldiers were known at that time.

Edited 23 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

I totally agree with you Frogsmile. Same ends of argument me thinks. Sons of the regiment definitely held close indeed! 

[Nickowen]

thank you both for the information. trying to locate service records for 16th middlesex regiment, don't suppose you would know where to get these from. I may have found that boy in the slouch hat as durban light infratry would this be right?

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Nickowen said:

thank you both for the information. trying to locate service records for 16th middlesex regiment, don't suppose you would know where to get these from. I may have found that boy in the slouch hat as durban light infratry would this be right?

 

I do realise that the military history can sometimes be confusing, but I don't understand why you keep coming back and asking the same question as if you are going to get a different answer.  All of your photos categorically show members of the London Irish Rifles.  The insignia and uniform is clear to see.  The slouch hat worn by the boy bugler was common field dress headwear from 1900 to 1905 and was not confined to just South Africa.

 

The London Irish Rifles have always been based in the London area (albeit in Middlesex before historic boundary changes).  Since their formation the unit title has changed a few times, but they have always kept their distinct identity:

 

The London Irish Rifles was originally formed in 1859 during the Victorian Volunteer Movement and named 28th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps.  

 

In 1880 the regiment was renumbered as the 16th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps.  

 

In 1908, the London Irish was transferred to the Territorial Force and renamed the 18th (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).  The full lineage can be read here: https://web.archive.org/web/20060110003023/http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/volmil-london/vinf/L18rish.htm

 

Looking at the uniforms of your photos I believe they date from before 1908 and so show insignia of 16th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps.  I enclose a photo of a bugler of the regiment from around the same time, notice his collar badges.  He does not wear a leather cross belt as this was worn as a distinction by officers and sergeants only.

 

There is an association and a museum relating to the London Irish Rifles:

 

1.  https://www.londonirishrifles.com/

 

2.  https://www.collections.armymuseums.org.uk/listing/london-irish-rifles-museum/

 

The regimental successors of this unit still exist as a London Irish Rifles Company of a modern London Regiment: https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/corps-regiments-and-units/infantry/london-regiment/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Nickowen]

I can find records of my great grandad's sister husband Cecil Ballantine who was a staff sergeant in 21st London regiment just making sure this is correct. before i go down the wrong route with the family.

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, Nickowen said:

I can find records of my great grandad's sister husband Cecil Ballantine who was a staff sergeant in 21st London regiment just making sure this is correct. before i go down the wrong route with the family.

 

Well hopefully you now accept that your family members were in the London Irish Rifles around the time of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902.  Good luck with your further research, you are very lucky that the regiment concerned has a Museum and an Association that should be able to assist.

[10Div]

There is a partial list of men from the 16th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers who served in the Boer War at the London Metropolitan Archives,40 Northampton Road, Clerkenwell, London . Unfortunately not on-line.

 

Steve