Any help would be greatly appreciate :)

[Cochrane37787]

Well at least I have a starting point that I can research these units for ANY name from my family tree as we don’t have a clue who this man is lol hopefully we will get closer to finding out who he is and if he isn’t family I can work towards getting this photo to his family. 

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, Scalyback said:

Units that had three feathers with a scroll underneath in not much order

The Welsh Regiment

The Glamorgan Yemonary

The Pembrokshire Yeomanry

The 10th Hussars

3rd Dragoon Guards 

Cheshire Yeomanry 

 

The Royal Whiltshire and Denbighshire Yeomanry had the three feathers but not a scroll.

 

However I can not think of one above where the scroll is so U shaped rather than straight. 

 

The Welsh Regiment is the only one on your list with a short title scroll, all the others have much longer scrolls and do not fit the image at all.  Pete.

[roughdiamond]

10 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The Welsh Regiment is the only one on your list with a short title scroll, all the others have much longer scrolls and do not fit the image at all.  Pete.

 

And neither does the Welsh scroll Pete, it's not as curved as the one in the photo.

 

Sam

[Michelle Young]

@FROGSMILE can you assist  with this cap badge ID please? 

 

Michelle 

[FROGSMILE]

He is a Sergeant in the Leinster Regiment who has bent his badge slightly so that it curves to fit the shape of the cap.  This was fairly common practice with regulars as it made the badge more secure and less likely to catch on things. You can also make out his curved shoulder title, LEINSTERRC

His medal ribbon might be pre-war, I’ll look to see what the regiment qualified for.  Quite a lot of Scotsmen joined Irish regiments both before and during the war.  It seems to me that he had served 5-years with the Colours in the Seaforth Highlanders before the war and was either mobilised as a reservist or later volunteered for or was conscripted into the Leinster’s.  As with all the Southern Irish regiments after the initial high casualty rate of 1914-16, the Leinster’s were unable to sustain recruiting from their Irish recruiting areas and they took even more Scots and English than hitherto to make up the numbers.  Pure pragmatism.  The medal might well relate to his Seaforth’s service.

 

Afternote: sure enough the 1st Seaforths we’re entitled to the 1908 India General Service Medal for two campaigns, the Mohmand Expedition in 1908 and the Abor Expedition in 1911-1912.  Having checked, the Leinster’s did not qualify for any campaigns pre-war.  They would have valued a man with pre-war operational experience gained with the Seaforth’s.

 

Edited 26 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

@FROGSMILE can you assist  with this cap badge ID please? 

 

Michelle 

 

Hi Michelle, hope you are well.  I’m always glad to help, thanks for asking.

[phsvm]

General word of advice.  Do NOT rely on other people's trees on any on-line site.  There are so many errors where the owners have made assumptions, not done thorough research, copied other trees with errors, etc that it is impossible to know which are accurate and which aren't.

 

By all means use them as possible pointers but do your own research which you can back up with facts from more than one source or which are a primary source.

[roughdiamond]

41 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Quite a lot of Scotsmen joined Irish regiments both before and during the war. 

 

The Town of Coatbridge in a Times study from the 1990's was shown to have the highest population by percentage of people from Irish descent in the UK, many came to work in the town's Iron works, my own family included. As a consequence, many joined Irish Regts, a Gt Gt Uncle was a Boer War and WW1 veteran of the R Dubs, my Gt Uncle (his nephew) joined the Connaught Rangers at the outbreak of War. 

 

Back to the thread, the photo of John in my book doesn't resemble the photo of the Leinster Sgt IMHO, however that doesn't mean it isn't him, 1901 and 1911 Census may have the answer.

 

In addition William's Seaforth number is an early 1909 enlistment and his date of entry matches the 1st Bn's so doubtful he had previous service as a Sgt in the Leinsters.

 

Sam

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, roughdiamond said:

 

The Town of Coatbridge in a Times study from the 1990's was shown to have the highest population by percentage of people from Irish descent in the UK, many came to work in the town's Iron works, my own family included. As a consequence, many joined Irish Regts, a Gt Gt Uncle was a Boer War and WW1 veteran of the R Dubs, my Gt Uncle (his nephew) joined the Connaught Rangers at the outbreak of War. 

 

Back to the thread, the photo of John in my book doesn't resemble the photo of the Leinster Sgt IMHO, however that doesn't mean it isn't him, 1901 and 1911 Census may have the answer.

 

In addition William's Seaforth number is an early 1909 enlistment and his date of entry matches the 1st Bn's so doubtful he had previous service as a Sgt in the Leinsters.

 

Sam

 

 

 

Sam, having read the entire  thread my understanding is that it is thought to be William, not John in both the Seaforth’s photo, AND the photo of the Sergeant.  My hypothesis is that the young Seaforth later became the wartime Leinster Sergeant.  That meant service before the war in India with the Seaforth’s and then later service in the war with the Leinster’s, rather than the sequence you mentioned.  Personally I did see some facial resemblance between the two men once you make allowance for age, and the typical army moustache.

Edited 26 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

Hello Frogsmile, with all due respect to your obviously deep knowledge of militaria, I have to disagree with you on the badge worn by the man with the mooey. The reasons I think it's the Welsh Regiment, apart from the curved title scroll, are the void between the bottom of the feathers and the title scroll and the fact that the ends of the title scroll align with those of the "Ich Dien" scrolls. On the Leinster Regiment badge the title scroll is straight and much shorter than the "Ich Dien" scrolls. Also, of course, the Welsh Regiment had curved shoulder titles as well. Sorry if I'm being a pain.  Pete.

[Scalyback]

20 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Hello Frogsmile, with all due respect to your obviously deep knowledge of militaria, I have to disagree with you on the badge worn by the man with the mooey. The reasons I think it's the Welsh Regiment, apart from the curved title scroll, are the void between the bottom of the feathers and the title scroll and the fact that the ends of the title scroll align with those of the "Ich Dien" scrolls. On the Leinster Regiment badge the title scroll is straight and much shorter than the "Ich Dien" scrolls. Also, of course, the Welsh Regiment had curved shoulder titles as well. Sorry if I'm being a pain.  Pete.

 

Have a look at all the cap badges together from a distance. Pembroke and Welsh are the same apart from the legend underneath. 

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Hello Frogsmile, with all due respect to your obviously deep knowledge of militaria, I have to disagree with you on the badge worn by the man with the mooey. The reasons I think it's the Welsh Regiment, apart from the curved title scroll, are the void between the bottom of the feathers and the title scroll and the fact that the ends of the title scroll align with those of the "Ich Dien" scrolls. On the Leinster Regiment badge the title scroll is straight and much shorter than the "Ich Dien" scrolls. Also, of course, the Welsh Regiment had curved shoulder titles as well. Sorry if I'm being a pain.  Pete.

 

You’re not being a pain Pete, we all have valid opinions.  I note your point about the gaps and positioning of the various scrolls etc, but in this case I believe that the badge has been curved and that this has distorted the view of the scrolls.  Another, more significant factor, is that the Leinster’s PoW feathers were notably more upright in stance and less spread than those of the Welsh Regiment (see image below), and I believe that that difference is very apparent in the photo of the sergeant.  Personally I remain confident of the Leinster’s ID, but accept that others might feel differently.

 

Footnote:  interestingly there was a manufacturers variation whereby the Welsh Regiment style feathers were used with the Leinster’s scroll thus creating a hybrid Leinster badge, but this was (understandably) disliked by the regiment and only rarely seen in wear.

 

Edited 26 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

Just not convinced by the scroll at the bottom. Almost U shaped, where most scrolls are flatter. 

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

Just not convinced by the scroll at the bottom. Almost U shaped, where most scrolls are flatter. 

 

I understand, but consider the effect of bending the badge (a common practice) too, and much more significantly consider the upright stance of the 3-feathers seen on the sergeant.  The Welsh Regiment only ever had that same, outspread design of feathers.  That must surely be the key feature in a balance of probabilities.  My perception is that the u-shape you mention is a slight optical illusion formed by the title scroll combined with the ich dien scrolls into one visual mass. 

 

Ideally one of our researchers will be able to track the name (William Cochrane) down to the regiment concerned via a medal index card.

Edited 26 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[roughdiamond]

57 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

My hypothesis is that the young Seaforth later became the wartime Leinster Sergeant.  That meant service before the war in India with the Seaforth’s and then later service in the war with the Leinster’s, rather than the sequence you mentioned.

 

Hi mate

I checked both his MIC and CWGC entry (KIA 05/11/17 on Basra memorial) and on both he's listed as a Pte in the 1st Bn Seaforths, his MIC lists no other units hence the reason I dismissed him being the Sgt.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, roughdiamond said:

 

Hi mate

I checked both his MIC and CWGC entry (KIA 05/11/17 on Basra memorial) and on both he's listed as a Pte in the 1st Bn Seaforths, his MIC lists no other units hence the reason I dismissed him being the Sgt.

 

Well that’s pretty much categoric then and the two men cannot be one and the same.  That they might have been so was always a hypothesis given the distance in time between the two photos and the relatively slight facial resemblance.  That connection was always less clear.  Where I personally feel 100% confident, albeit with full respect for contrary views, is that the sergeant is from the Leinster Regiment.

[CorporalPunishment]

35 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

 

Have a look at all the cap badges together from a distance. Pembroke and Welsh are the same apart from the legend underneath. 

The Pembroke scroll is twice as long as the Welsh one.

[roughdiamond]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Well that’s pretty much categoric then and the two men cannot be one and the same.  That they might have been so was always a hypothesis given the distance in time between the two photos and the relatively slight facial resemblance.  That connection was always less clear.  Where I personally feel 100% confident, albeit with full respect for contrary views, is that the sergeant is from the Leinster Regiment.

 

The OP did mention in an earlier post 2 other brothers, George and Andrew, neither are listed in my book as enlisting in Coatbridge.

 

I had a look to see if either could have served in the Leinster or Welsh Regts, there was an L/Sgt A. Cochrane in the Welsh but another MIC shows he's "Archibald", nothing else close.

 

Sam

Edited 26 November , 2018 by roughdiamond

[CorporalPunishment]

34 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

You’re not being a pain Pete, we all have valid opinions.  I note your point about the gaps and positioning of the various scrolls etc, but in this case I believe that the badge has been curved and that this has distorted the view of the scrolls.  Another, more significant factor, is that the Leinster’s PoW feathers were notably more upright in stance and less spread than those of the Welsh Regiment (see image below), and I believe that that difference is very apparent in the photo of the sergeant.  Personally I remain confident of the Leinster’s ID, but accept that others might feel differently.

 

Footnote:  interestingly there was a manufacturers variation whereby the Welsh Regiment style feathers were used with the Leinster’s scroll thus creating a hybrid Leinster badge, but this was (understandably) disliked by the regiment and only rarely seen in wear.

 

I can see what you mean with regard to the feathers. One for the B&CMBF I reckon!!.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I can see what you mean with regard to the feathers. One for the B&CMBF I reckon!!.

 

I post there as ‘Toby Purcell’.  I’m quite happy to see what others think.

 

5 minutes ago, roughdiamond said:

 

The OP did mention in an earlier post 2 other brothers, George and Andrew, neither are listed in my book as enlisting in Coatbridge.

 

I had a look to see if either could have served in the Leinster or Welsh Regts, there was an L/Sgt A. Cochrane in the Welsh but another MIC shows he's "Archibald", nothing else close.

 

Sam

 

I wonder if Archibald might be an as yet undiscovered relative of the OP, Lorna.  That said, I really do feel confident about the Leinster’s ID and I would say so if I was even a little unsure.

Edited 26 November , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I post there as ‘Toby Purcell’.  I’m quite happy to see what others think.

I thought it was you, I'm a member too.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, CorporalPunishment said:

I thought it was you, I'm a member too.

 

It’s a small world that we Military ‘anoraks’ occupy 😉

[CorporalPunishment]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

It’s a small world that we Military ‘anoraks’ occupy 😉

Small but very interesting. I doubt if many auction houses are fans of the B&CMBF though.

[Cochrane37787]

Hello everyone, I am really sorry for not seeing and replying before now I have been really sick the past 48 hours and actually forgot to check in.

 

I will need to go on my laptop to re-read everything to be able to answer properly but with William who was in the Seaforth he died in 1917 somewhere in Persian gulf which confuses me as I thought the war was in France/Belgium (I don’t know all the ins and outs of the war only just started being interested in it so don’t slate me please 🤪) also in regards to his other 2 brothers we know one of them served and survived but not sure who is who George or Andrew but we have sent the pictures to one of their grandsons to see if he recognises any of them as we think the 1 with the stick with the funny badge on cap could be his grandad. 

 

I really do wish I hadn’t started looking for my grandad johns brothers lol or this family tree my head is wasted with it all lol I know not for a fact that William never married as I went on to people’s Scotland and I’ve paid for all the birth marriage and death certificates (actually think I’ve said that above somewhere I apologise for repeating myself, sorry) I’ll shut up now lol