Britain's old ally

[Khaki]

What would Britain's position/reaction have been if France had attacked Germany to recover Alsace and Lorraine?. What was the military cooperation if any prior to the Great War?

Was the Kaiser's posturing a real indicator of the German military's  attitude, or was there an undercurrent  of a desire to have Britain as a potential ally?

 

thoughts please

khaki

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Khaki said:

What would Britain's position/reaction have been if France had attacked Germany to recover Alsace and Lorraine?.

 

When?

In 1914? Or earlier? Or as an offensive during the war?

And are you asking if Britain would have supported France or joined in a military adventure?

 

Although I don't think the timing is that important, the answer would still be 'No'.

Edited 22 November , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Ron Clifton]

1 hour ago, Khaki said:

What would Britain's position/reaction have been if France had attacked Germany to recover Alsace and Lorraine?. What was the military cooperation if any prior to the Great War?

Almost certainly to stay neutral - unless Britain's own interests were threatened. Both France and Germany had prepared elaborate war plans but it needed a definite casus belli to make the go to war - in the event, the invasion of Belgium.

 

Germany's attitude towards Britain was not belligerent as such, although they resented the attitude of Britain which was to regard the Kaiser as a noisy, naughty upstart. The naval arms race demanded responses from Britain, which included guarantees to protect the northern coasts of France, leaving France free to concentrate her fleet in the Mediterranean in case Italy threw in her lot with Germany and Austria-Hungary.

 

Ron

[CountryJohn]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Britain's old ally'.  Britain and France had been at war as recently as 1815, and the Entente Cordiale, signed only in 1904, might have signalled a rapprochement, but it was more an agreement not to interfere in each other's colonial sphere of influence than anything else.

 

There was no formal military alliance between Britain and France when the Great War broke out.  If you haven't done so already, I would read up about Sir Henry Wilson.  In the pre-war period he had played both ends against the middle by promising the French, totally without authority, that Britain would come to their aid in the event of war with Germany, while assuring everyone at home that the General Staff 'conversations' that were going on didn't commit Britain to anything.  He was also instrumental in pressuring the British government to enter the war on France's side after the German invasion of Belgium.

 

CJ

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, Khaki said:

What would Britain's position/reaction have been if France had attacked Germany to recover Alsace and Lorraine?. What was the military cooperation if any prior to the Great War?

 

If you take the Agadir Crisis as a template, then Britain was indeed prepared to act with France against Germany

 

The Committee of Imperial Defence met on 23rd August 1911 when it was agreed that in the case of a Franco-German war breaking out, then Britain would

"mount a rapid continental intervention, including the transshipment of a British Expeditionary Force."

and during September there were conversations regarding 'coordinated mobilization plans and strategy.'

 

All the talk and activity impressed the Germans; Bethmann wrote to the German ambassador in London, "Britian seems to have been ready to strike every day"

[see p.211 of The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark]

[Medaler]

3 hours ago, CountryJohn said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Britain's old ally'.  Britain and France had been at war as recently as 1815, and the Entente Cordiale, signed only in 1904,

 

True, though they were also on our side in the Crimea. The accolade of our oldest ally belongs to the Pork n' Beans.

 

Mike

[michaeldr]

42 minutes ago, Medaler said:

True, though they were also on our side in the Crimea.

You can add to the Crimea 1854-56

the Second Opium War1856-60

and the Bombardment of Alexandria 1882

[Khaki]

What was in my mind and kicked it off was the German pickelhaube plates that had the battle honor "Waterloo", 

khaki

[michaeldr]

A lot can happen in 99 years

[Khaki]

Wasn't the general attitude between English (not sure about Scots, Irish, Welsh) and the opposing Saxons more sympathetic, suggesting to me that hostility of all of Germany was not universal?

khaki

[Ron Clifton]

17 hours ago, Khaki said:

What was in my mind and kicked it off was the German pickelhaube plates that had the battle honor "Waterloo", 

khaki

Hanoverian regiments. We shared a king with them in 1815.

 

5 hours ago, Khaki said:

Wasn't the general attitude between English (not sure about Scots, Irish, Welsh) and the opposing Saxons more sympathetic, suggesting to me that hostility of all of Germany was not universal?

khaki

Saxons and Bavarians seem to have had less antipathy towards the English than Prussians. There are comments about notices being put up saying "We are Saxons, you are Anglo-Saxons. We will not fire if you don't" and messages being passed such as "Save your ammunition. The Prussians are taking over these trenches next week."

 

There is also a story about a Scottish regiment, taking over a stretch of trench quietly and at night, being greeted with the sound of their own regimental march being played by a German band opposite.

 

Ron

[phil andrade]

21 hours ago, Medaler said:

 

True, though they were also on our side in the Crimea. The accolade of our oldest ally belongs to the Pork n' Beans.

 

Mike

 

 

Exactly my initial reaction.

 

Portugal.

 

But hadn’t Prussia been England’s-  (sorry ! Britain’s ) -  “ sword “ on the Continent during the Seven Year’s War ?

 

Pitt the Elder’s  finance  from GB putting the gold behind the coalition, while Frederick the Great’s Grenadiers paid the price in blood.

 

Something that Falkenhayn observed in reverse 160 years later, with Fance being England’s sword.

 

Francophilia had been  developing apace in GB in the decades before the Great War.  Wilson gives some evidence of this, as does the experience of Kitchener as early as his tour of duty with French ambulances in the Franco Prussian War. Then, on the other hand, we musn’t forget Fashoda.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 November , 2018 by phil andrade

[charlie2]

19 hours ago, Khaki said:

What was in my mind and kicked it off was the German pickelhaube plates that had the battle honor "Waterloo", 

khaki

 

Also the Gibraltar cuff title worn by 3 of the Hanoverian Battalions and their descendants http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gibraltar/