Clare Singleton Posted 21 November , 2018 Share Posted 21 November , 2018 (edited) My maternal grandfather, John Williams, served in the 1st Northumbrian Brigade R.F.A (Territorial Force). Initially it was the 1st Northumbrian Division. On the 14th May 1915 it became the 50th Northumbrian Division. On 16th May 1916 it became the 250th Northumbrian Brigade. 2nd Battery, which John belonged to, became ‘B’ Battery. I intend visiting The National Archives next month to look for information in Casualty Clearing Station documents about my grandfather, John Williams. I wondered if anyone could help me identify which CCS he would have been taken to? John was injured, with gunshot wound to his left arm with a compound fracture of the radius, on one of the following dates - 27th, 28th or 31st August 1916. My mother thinks the 28th August is the most likely, as in the War Diary it says 'two slight casualties today', which would tie in with John being awarded the Military Medal for going to help one of the men who was injured laying communication lines. On the 27th August the War Diary says 'B Battery had one man slightly wounded during the afternoon'. On the 31st August the book says 'B had one man slightly wounded', although there is some discrepancy, as the War Diary doesn't mention it. At that time they were involved in the Battle of the Somme, in the Mametz Wood area, attacking High Wood. I have the War Diary for that period for both the Brigade and the Cameron Highlanders, the infantry attached to the Brigade. I also have the book 'War History of the 1st Northumbrian Brigade RFA 1914-1918' that had belonged to my grandfather. I can provide more information to their exact movements, if that helps. The following quotation in the book, for the 27th August, may help a military expert to identify an exact position - 'A nasty wet day, much heavy mud. Battery now covers S4.c3½.8½ to 7½.7½ in HIGH WOOD, held by CAMERONS’ 1st DIVISION'. The last entry in John's Pay Book was Thursday 24th August 1916, which may help. Clare Edited 21 November , 2018 by Clare Singleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 21 November , 2018 Share Posted 21 November , 2018 Clare What was his service number ? Put it into FMP under First World War and it will tell you if there is a record for him in the Hospital Admissions books MH 106 held at the National Archives, Kew. It will be shown as Medical Records. Only a representative sample remain but what books there are have been indexed and scanned by FMP. These cover Nos 3, 11, 34 and 39 CCS. 2 and 18 General Hospitals. 31 Ambulance Train and some hospitals in the UK. You can browse MH 106 on Discovery. Also in the WD of the 50 Div HQ General Staff Adjutant and Quarter Master General there are lists of men presented with medal ribbons in May 1918 with citations which cover 1916. (P 254 on Ancestry). There are no RFA unfortunately. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jervis Posted 21 November , 2018 Share Posted 21 November , 2018 Thanks Brian. Are these records on FMP the same set that was released on forced war records last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 November , 2018 Share Posted 21 November , 2018 (edited) Looks like B/250, RFA was at 57D.X.17.b.7.5 on 27 Aug 1916. They had just taken over positions formerly occupied by B/70, RFA in 15th Division, but with exchange of guns, and were under command of CRA, 1st Division. As you say, they were covering the High Wood sector. The rest of 50th (Northumbrian) Div was out of the line. You should read the war diaries for 1st Div CRA, 15th Div CRA, 50th Div CRA, LXX Bde, RFA as well as the war diary for CCL Bde RFA. There was a lot of shuffling of artillery units at this stage of The Somme, with artillery covering the infantry from other divisions not their own. Mark Edited 21 November , 2018 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 21 November , 2018 Share Posted 21 November , 2018 5 hours ago, Jervis said: Thanks Brian. Are these records on FMP the same set that was released on forced war records last year? I don't know but I am working on MH 106 at the moment checking all the numbers for the County Palatine Royal Engineers (30 Div) through FMP looking for hospital admissions. What was his 1916 service number. I will look tomorrow at the library. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Singleton Posted 25 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2018 On 21/11/2018 at 10:23, brianmorris547 said: Clare What was his service number ? Put it into FMP under First World War and it will tell you if there is a record for him in the Hospital Admissions books MH 106 held at the National Archives, Kew. It will be shown as Medical Records. Only a representative sample remain but what books there are have been indexed and scanned by FMP. These cover Nos 3, 11, 34 and 39 CCS. 2 and 18 General Hospitals. 31 Ambulance Train and some hospitals in the UK. You can browse MH 106 on Discovery. Also in the WD of the 50 Div HQ General Staff Adjutant and Quarter Master General there are lists of men presented with medal ribbons in May 1918 with citations which cover 1916. (P 254 on Ancestry). There are no RFA unfortunately. Brian Hi Brian Thank you for replying so quickly and apologies that I haven't responded until now and sorry I didn't reply before your visit to TNA. John Williams Service Number was 1176 and 750275. I think the latter was for 1916. I have looked on FMP and some records did appear for John but I couldn't see any Medical Records. As you say, if only a few have survived that may be the reason. I've managed to locate trench maps and found 57D x 17.b.7.5 (Longueval) so thank you for that 'gem'. How did you know his Division were there? I see there was an ADS at Crucifix Corner on the Bazentin to Longueval road and wondered whether John may have gone there, but then read that each Division had their own medical arrangements. As a lay person I find it so hard understanding military information and get and more confused. Thank you again Clare On 21/11/2018 at 18:09, brianmorris547 said: I don't know but I am working on MH 106 at the moment checking all the numbers for the County Palatine Royal Engineers (30 Div) through FMP looking for hospital admissions. What was his 1916 service number. I will look tomorrow at the library. Brian On 21/11/2018 at 18:09, brianmorris547 said: I don't know but I am working on MH 106 at the moment checking all the numbers for the County Palatine Royal Engineers (30 Div) through FMP looking for hospital admissions. What was his 1916 service number. I will look tomorrow at the library. Brian On 21/11/2018 at 18:09, brianmorris547 said: I don't know but I am working on MH 106 at the moment checking all the numbers for the County Palatine Royal Engineers (30 Div) through FMP looking for hospital admissions. What was his 1916 service number. I will look tomorrow at the library. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 The MH106 records on FMP are the same as those on FWR. The latter may have more transcriptions while FMP has originals. The problem with artillery medical evacuations is that they may have been a long way from the infantry whose Medical Arrangements were clearly defined. By Aug 1916 medical arrangements were being organised by Corps rather than Divisions. I think they were 3 Corps at the time so I can check that later. There maybe mentions of medical arrangements for artillery men either in Divisional ADMS diary, 3 Corps, or the CRA. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jervis Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 53 minutes ago, TEW said: The MH106 records on FMP are the same as those on FWR. The latter may have more transcriptions while FMP has originals. Thank you for confirming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 8 hours ago, Clare Singleton said: Hi Brian <snip>I've managed to locate trench maps and found 57D x 17.b.7.5 (Longueval) so thank you for that 'gem'. How did you know his Division were there? I see there was an ADS at Crucifix Corner on the Bazentin to Longueval road and wondered whether John may have gone there, but then read that each Division had their own medical arrangements. As a lay person I find it so hard understanding military information and get and more confused. Thank you again Clare Is that actually for me rather than Brian? If so, then see the bit in bold below ... Also take note of TEW's point about men from artillery using different medevac chains from the infantry in the front line. In this case even more so as the artillery of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division (which included CCL Brigade, RFA) were detached from the rest of the division and under command of 1st Division at this time! Mark On 21/11/2018 at 15:41, MBrockway said: Looks like B/250, RFA was at 57D.X.17.b.7.5 on 27 Aug 1916. They had just taken over positions formerly occupied by B/70, RFA in 15th Division, but with exchange of guns, and were under command of CRA, 1st Division. As you say, they were covering the High Wood sector. The rest of 50th (Northumbrian) Div was out of the line. You should read the war diaries for 1st Div CRA, 15th Div CRA, 50th Div CRA, LXX Bde, RFA as well as the war diary for CCL Bde RFA. There was a lot of shuffling of artillery units at this stage of The Somme, with artillery covering the infantry from other divisions not their own. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 Clare It's Mark you must thank for the map reference. John's service numbers were 1176 and from 1917 onwards 750271. I put his 1916 number 1176 into FMP with Artillery in the keywords box and it comes back with John Williams, British Army Service Records. So there is something there but until I go to the library I can not tell what it is. I could not find a Service or Pension record for him on Ancestry and it will be Tuesday before I go to the library again. His MM is Gazetted in the LG 27/10/1916 no 29805 p 10486 under his 1916 number 1176. He also has a Silver War Badge record showing that he was discharged on 09/04/1918 from 77 Depot (T). Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Singleton Posted 25 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2018 6 hours ago, MBrockway said: Is that actually for me rather than Brian? If so, then see the bit in bold below ... Also take note of TEW's point about men from artillery using different medevac chains from the infantry in the front line. In this case even more so as the artillery of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division (which included CCL Brigade, RFA) were detached from the rest of the division and under command of 1st Division at this time! Mark Yes, it was for you Mark - sorry, I am such a novice following a forum so apologies for my errors. Many thanks for all the help you are giving me - I do appreciate it. Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Singleton Posted 25 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2018 4 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: Clare It's Mark you must thank for the map reference. John's service numbers were 1176 and from 1917 onwards 750271. I put his 1916 number 1176 into FMP with Artillery in the keywords box and it comes back with John Williams, British Army Service Records. So there is something there but until I go to the library I can not tell what it is. I could not find a Service or Pension record for him on Ancestry and it will be Tuesday before I go to the library again. His MM is Gazetted in the LG 27/10/1916 no 29805 p 10486 under his 1916 number 1176. He also has a Silver War Badge record showing that he was discharged on 09/04/1918 from 77 Depot (T). Brian I have now thanked Mark. I am fairly new to this game, so apologies for my errors. I appreciate all the help you are giving me. Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Singleton Posted 25 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2018 9 hours ago, TEW said: The MH106 records on FMP are the same as those on FWR. The latter may have more transcriptions while FMP has originals. The problem with artillery medical evacuations is that they may have been a long way from the infantry whose Medical Arrangements were clearly defined. By Aug 1916 medical arrangements were being organised by Corps rather than Divisions. I think they were 3 Corps at the time so I can check that later. There maybe mentions of medical arrangements for artillery men either in Divisional ADMS diary, 3 Corps, or the CRA. TEW Thank you for all your help. I do appreciate it. Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 25 November , 2018 Share Posted 25 November , 2018 Sometimes war diaries contain maps of the CCS to be used and its location Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 26 November , 2018 Share Posted 26 November , 2018 I was hunting for those when I trawled through the CRA diaries. I did find the battery locations listed, but nothing on the medevac plans. TEW's suggestion to look in the Corps diaries is a good one, but unfortunately I do not think these have been digitised yet. You could try the 1st Division HQ General Staff war diary. There is a fair bit on the CCS locations in the Official History - Medical Services Vol. III - Medical Services on Western Front 1916-18 etc. (WG MacPherson, 1924), but you'll have to do quite a bit of tracking their movements as the battle advanced. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 26 November , 2018 Share Posted 26 November , 2018 His FMP record is a pension set and does detail his injury - Left forearm amputated. GSW. Returned to the UK 1/9/1916. The nature of the injury helps slightly in determining which CCS he went to. There is a set of medical orders by the III Corps DDMS dated 1/8/1916 with an addendum dated 25/8/1916. This was issued to 1st, 15th, 47th & 50th Divisions. III Corps had two MDS in Albert, No.1 Civil Hospital for severe cases, No. 2 Ecole Superieure for walking cases ie light injuries. From No. 1 MDS Abdomen and severe chest injuries if fit to travel are to be sent to 36 CCS at Heilly. Severe wounded by MAC to Vecquemont group (34 CCS & 45 CCS). Gassed to Heilly group (36 CCS & 38 CCS). Very severe at No. 1 MDS to be retained until fit then sent to Heilly group. On that basis and having seen a 57d map I'd suggest he was taken to No. 1 MDS in Albert and then moved out to the Vecquemont group (34 CCS & 45 CCS). These were probably working in rotation so once full a CCS would shut and the other open for intake. So it's pot luck really and just depends what time an injuried man arrived. No way I can see to get determine if it was 34 CCS or 45 CCS. He may of course have been initially taken to an ADS and these were under Corps arrangements as; 1st Div running ADSs at Bottom Wood & Flatiron Cross 15th Division also at Flatiron Cross & Contalmaison 50th Division were running Divisional Rest Stations for lightly wounded of III Corps 47th Division were assisting with 1st & 15th Division ADSs and with evacuations to the ADSs. You would have to map out the locations for 57D.X.17.b.7.5, then the 2 MDSs and the ADSs. Looks as if 15th Division were running an ADS in 57d.X.16 which is in an adjacent square. Not sure where Bottom Wood & Flatiron Cross are. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 26 November , 2018 Share Posted 26 November , 2018 (edited) Clare, This schematic from the Official History shows the general process for the medical evacuation chain of an Army Corps (treat 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc Division as generic terms, not actual division numbers). They might help you piece all this together ... In TEW's post above, MAC is Motor Ambulance Convoy - see the RHS of the schematic. This schematic shows the medical processes at the Base areas on the Channel coast ... Mark Edited 26 November , 2018 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Singleton Posted 26 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2018 7 hours ago, TEW said: His FMP record is a pension set and does detail his injury - Left forearm amputated. GSW. Returned to the UK 1/9/1916. The nature of the injury helps slightly in determining which CCS he went to. There is a set of medical orders by the III Corps DDMS dated 1/8/1916 with an addendum dated 25/8/1916. This was issued to 1st, 15th, 47th & 50th Divisions. III Corps had two MDS in Albert, No.1 Civil Hospital for severe cases, No. 2 Ecole Superieure for walking cases ie light injuries. From No. 1 MDS Abdomen and severe chest injuries if fit to travel are to be sent to 36 CCS at Heilly. Severe wounded by MAC to Vecquemont group (34 CCS & 45 CCS). Gassed to Heilly group (36 CCS & 38 CCS). Very severe at No. 1 MDS to be retained until fit then sent to Heilly group. On that basis and having seen a 57d map I'd suggest he was taken to No. 1 MDS in Albert and then moved out to the Vecquemont group (34 CCS & 45 CCS). These were probably working in rotation so once full a CCS would shut and the other open for intake. So it's pot luck really and just depends what time an injuried man arrived. No way I can see to get determine if it was 34 CCS or 45 CCS. He may of course have been initially taken to an ADS and these were under Corps arrangements as; 1st Div running ADSs at Bottom Wood & Flatiron Cross 15th Division also at Flatiron Cross & Contalmaison 50th Division were running Divisional Rest Stations for lightly wounded of III Corps 47th Division were assisting with 1st & 15th Division ADSs and with evacuations to the ADSs. You would have to map out the locations for 57D.X.17.b.7.5, then the 2 MDSs and the ADSs. Looks as if 15th Division were running an ADS in 57d.X.16 which is in an adjacent square. Not sure where Bottom Wood & Flatiron Cross are. TEW Hi TEW Thank you so much for all that information. It is very helpful and I do appreciate it. I will spend some time trying to digest it all. I do know that John did not have his arm amputated straight away. He wrote a letter from the Kenton Ward at St. Bartholomew's Hospital in London on 16th Jan 1917. On 26th Jan 1917 he wrote a letter from Kettlewell Convalescent Home in Kent, where he had electrical treatment to help the nerves join together. He had a number of operations at St. Bart's, including having plates inserted and later removed and finally amputation. He also wrote from St. Barts on 20th March and 28th March 1917. Clare 7 hours ago, MBrockway said: Clare, This schematic from the Official History shows the general process for the medical evacuation chain of an Army Corps (treat 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc Division as generic terms, not actual division numbers). They might help you piece all this together ... In TEW's post above, MAC is Motor Ambulance Convoy - see the RHS of the schematic. This schematic shows the medical processes at the Base areas on the Channel coast ... Mark Mark Thank you for sending the diagrams - I will enjoy analysing them in detail. Much appreciated. Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 27 November , 2018 Share Posted 27 November , 2018 Clare, From what you say about his arm injury it is possible he was considered a 'Walking Wounded' light case. I know that sounds odd but for evacuation purposes as opposed to treatment men were usually triaged as Walking, Sitting, Lying. Each group would be evacuated by different means, EG returning ammunition lorries for Walking, MAC cars for Lying etc. Walking Wounded is something of a misnomer in that they didn't have to be or expect to walk. For your purposes this may only change which MDS he went to, perhaps if seen as a light case he may have gone to No. 2 and then followed the same route to CCS. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare Singleton Posted 27 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2018 5 hours ago, TEW said: Clare, From what you say about his arm injury it is possible he was considered a 'Walking Wounded' light case. I know that sounds odd but for evacuation purposes as opposed to treatment men were usually triaged as Walking, Sitting, Lying. Each group would be evacuated by different means, EG returning ammunition lorries for Walking, MAC cars for Lying etc. Walking Wounded is something of a misnomer in that they didn't have to be or expect to walk. For your purposes this may only change which MDS he went to, perhaps if seen as a light case he may have gone to No. 2 and then followed the same route to CCS. TEW Thanks for that TEW. Clare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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