Ordnance Corps - Army Numbers

[Matlock1418]

Not my specialist subject to be sure, but I know there will be someone out there ... 

 

Perusing CWGC I note a wide range of AOC and RAOC numbers on their current website, earlier Graves Registers, earlier still Grave Registration Report Forms and Headstone forms etc. - often differing online and original paper, likewise variously inscribed on some headstones themselves (sometimes including for the same casualty multiple variations - computer, paper & stone!).

 

There seem to be various alpha-numeric and numeric variants.

 

Many appear starting O1 [oscar1] or 01 [zero1] - seeming to also to extend to those starting 02, 03, poss 04 [assuming it's a starting zero!].

 

Others seem to start O/ [oscar/] or 0/ [zero/] (though having looked at some MIC and fewer Medal Rolls & Service Records I suspect those should be starting O1 or 01??)

(Looking at MIC I seem to have noted largely four to six numeric-only transcriptions - though the handwritten MIC, Rolls & SR, and even if typed, are rather ambiguous at times when it comes to O and 0.)

 

A mix of four to six, sometimes seven, characters in total - or more??

 

Is this an IWGC/CWGC [or wider] muddle, or is there a genuine range of numbering styles?

 

I suspect wider confusion as it doesn't help that the National Archive often transcribe as O/ when Ancestry transcribe as 01 [often does look more like 01]

 

And seen in London Gazette O.

 

And of course there seem to MIC for many other alpha/numeric numbers such those starting A/ and S/ [or are they five/?  -seen one hand-written as 5]

 

Plus there seem to be seven digit numeric [post-war RAOC] starting 75

 

• Please can someone explain the nomenclature of AOC / RAOC army numbers (pre-, during and post-war I suspect may be relevant - Regular, and poss. Territorial???)

• Also if possible - number and date range(s) for enlistment

• And (I suspect easier to answer) - an exact date when in 1918 the "Royal" prefix was officially attached to AOC  (Is there an official document like an London Gazette announcing such?)

 

Many thanks, in anticipation ...

Edited 21 November , 2018 by Matlock1418

[Ron Clifton]

Only a partial answer, I'm afraid, but here goes:

 

The "Royal" title was awarded to the AOC, ASC and AVC in the London Gazette dated 20 December 1918.

 

Seven-figure numbers were introduced in about 1921-22 to be unique across the Army. Each regiment or corps was allocated its own block of numbers, RAOC numbers all beginning 75.

 

Service numbers beginning with a zero seem to have been used for re-enlistments after the war.

 

Others will no doubt be along to answer your other questions!

 

Ron

[fellop]

From what I understand and this might require confirmation from someone with more expertise than I as an enthusiastic amateur.

An O [Oscar] prefix is for Ordnance Section

An 0 [Zero] prefix is for those who enlisted for war service [duration] only.

Slight addition to Ron's post if I might be so bold. The prefix Royal for the AOC was signed by the King on 25 November 1918 and Army Order 363/1918 was published on 27 November 1918.

Regards

Peter

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, fellop said:

The prefix Royal for the AOC was signed by the King on 25 November 1918 and Army Order 363/1918 was published on 27 November 1918.

 

9 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

The "Royal" title was awarded to the AOC, ASC and AVC in the London Gazette dated 20 December 1918.

 

Thanks for your replies.

As for the 'easy question' ...

Found the LG

But without seeming too pedantic, which of course I am being, which is the definitive date for RAOC?

 

As for the main question and AOC/RAOC army numbers ... anyone else care to step up please?

The truth's out there ... somewhere ...

[Ron Clifton]

I would say that the definitive date was the day that the King signed the Royal Warrant, i.e. 25 November. The Army Order merely reports the decision, for the general information of the Army.

 

I was surprised to see that the Gazette date actually pre-dates the Royal Warrant, but there might be a simple explanation for this. The London Gazette was (and is) published every Friday, but they also issued "Supplements" during the week (lists of honours and awards were often issued in this way), but on checking I see that 20 November 1918 was actually a Wednesday, so that can't be the explanation!

 

Ron

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

Gazette date actually pre-dates the Royal Warrant

I think December is after November ;-)

[Ron Clifton]

Oops! My bad, as our Yankee friends would say. But it does confirm my view that the signing of the Warrant on 25 November is the correct date, being followed by the Army Order and the Gazette entry.

 

Ron

[kevinrowlinson]

13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

 

Thanks for your replies.

As for the 'easy question' ...

Found the LG

But without seeming too pedantic, which of course I am being, which is the definitive date for RAOC?

 

As for the main question and AOC/RAOC army numbers ... anyone else care to step up please?

The truth's out there ... somewhere ...

 

I'm not aware that anyone has gone through the numbering for the AOC during the war, although I did for the "T" prefix in connection with my regiment of interest and could give approx. dates for enlistment for most of those.

 

By the very nature of some being improperly prefixed numbers I did see quite a few of the other enlistments and my conclusions were;

 

"T" was for Armament Artificer

"A" was for Armourer Artificer

"S" was for Stores section

"O" for new army men, or as the AOC preferred to call them "new force"

 

I believe the correct prefix for the last was "O" oscar, not "0" zero, followed by a "/" then number. Obviously by the very nature of things these could, and were, confused, and not just by non AOC personnel. Some records leaving off the prefix, or /, or both.

 

You could make it a project to go through mens service records for all these prefixes to establish dates of enlistment. I am more than happy to give you a start on the data I have on the "T" numbering.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

[fellop]

Howard Williamson in [his] Vol 2 The Great War Medal Collectors Companion; Regimental Numbers of the British Army 1914 to 1919.

On page 660 his preamble mentions that there is a lack of data and in depth study of AOC Regimental Numbers and he makes a superficial outline of number patterns.

 

He gives AOC number prefixes as:

A- denotes Armourers Section

AR- could mean Armourer or Army Reserve it seems the prefix was dropped early 1916.

NF- denotes New Force Enlistment

O- [Oscar] denotes Ordnance Section

S- denotes Stores Section

T- denotes Armament, Artificers Section

 

0- [Zero] denotes regimental numbers of wartime enlistments, for the duration or the war.

 

Howard does give some limited number range examples for some of the prefixes, happy to share if you do not have access to his excellent works; message or pm me.

 

Regards

Peter

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

"O" for new army men, or as the AOC preferred to call them "new force"

 

I believe the correct prefix for the last was "O" oscar, not "0" zero, followed by a "/" then number.

3 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

You could make it a project to go through mens service records for all these prefixes to establish dates of enlistment. I am more than happy to give you a start on the data I have on the "T" numbering.

Kevin,  Thanks for your reply and info.  I now am beginning to think O [oscar] was pre-/early war 'Ordnance' and 0  [zero] was wartime (i.e. 01 & 02 & 03 etc. moving to post-war pre- 75 numbers) - but there are many variants of O/ and 01 on documents and transcriptions as various people try to get a handle on things. They seemed to have as much trouble 100 years ago as today. The difficulty is trying to now sort the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks Kevin but I am not sure I  am at that stage!  Your work and offer are however noted and appreciated.

 

2 hours ago, fellop said:

Howard Williamson in [his] Vol 2 The Great War Medal Collectors Companion; Regimental Numbers of the British Army 1914 to 1919.

On page 660 his preamble mentions that there is a lack of data and in depth study of AOC Regimental Numbers and he makes a superficial outline of number patterns.

 

He gives AOC number prefixes as:

A- denotes Armourers Section

AR- could mean Armourer or Army Reserve it seems the prefix was dropped early 1916.

NF- denotes New Force Enlistment

O- [Oscar] denotes Ordnance Section

S- denotes Stores Section

T- denotes Armament, Artificers Section

 

0- [Zero] denotes regimental numbers of wartime enlistments, for the duration or the war.

 

Howard does give some limited number range examples for some of the prefixes, happy to share if you do not have access to his excellent works; message or pm me.

 

Peter, Thanks, Very useful and seems to confirm what I was suspecting. If HW's excellent Vol 1 on medals is anything to go by Vol 2 on numbers will contain a lot of stuff.  Not got it or even seen latter though.

 

We're getting there -  but to all - further contributions always welcome.

:-)

M