Can anyone help with this acronym?

[Marianne]

Thank you for the replies. No I haven’t checked that Johnboy but will do. Thank you for the suggestion. Thanks for that also Jamie, I’ll look for the other post. Not sure if I’ve caused some confusion, the man named at the top of the concentration sheet that I have not blanked out is not in the same regiment as my great grandfather. Sorry if I have. Thanks once again for all of your help and advice. It’s greatly appreciated. 

[jay dubaya]

Marianne I understand your confusion and probable distress at finding these details regarding your grandfathers death and I believe that there is some comfort in knowing that he received a burial by his pals at the time. It is not unusual for a field grave marker to become detached from its grave and I will look through my notes of cemeteries in the area that were concentrated post war. Also as had been mentioned it would be wise to look at all the concentration reports for the Strand Cemetery and see if any unknowns appear giving a similar map ref to that which appears in the battalion war diary (I have informed myself of the casualty and his unit). I do not have the CRs for the Strand but will happily download later, you’ll need to download a free app to find and download these reports.

I’m currently looking at a father who paid a private workforce to search the triangle where the padre buried his son several years earlier. Not only did the father identify his own son but there was a further 17 soldiers from the same unit buried with him in their trench grave. In all 68 bodies were recovered from an area that had been officially searched twice. 

I understand that you have contacted CWGC regarding this, they could hold more information (not available online) regarding the DGRUs and CRs for the cemetery and individuals. I will keep track of this thread and should no one else sort out the CRs I shall do it later

 

cherrs, Jon 

[Mark1959]

One chap I was investigating for my boat club I think is indicative of the problems tracking down remains.

The family deposited the man's papers with the Birthplace Trust in Stratford-Upon-Avon. Amongst that was a letter from the War Office dated 23/10/1917 stating that he was buried North of Messines (died 7/6/17) and giving distances from local landmarks and indicating it was marked by a cross. There was even a picture of the wooden cross with his and 5 other men's names on it amongst the papers. Plus a letter to the family from a comrade describing the same place of burial. The concentration report again lists the men at the correct trench map ref and indicates the cross was in place post-war.

No remains were found of any of the men. He appears on the NZ Messines Memorial. 

The family clearly put some effort into trying to locate his remains in the years after the war but were ultimately unsuccessful. Even if the remains were obliterated in further fighting one would assume the cross would have been also. A mystery never likely to be resolved

I wish you luck in your search. 

[TEW]

I've tried to get the CRs but failed, firefox update has scuppered the ability to have downloadthemall. I can see the one one Marianne has put up and found the diary page.

 

CWGC has the following on the cemetery;

354 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to six casualties known or believed to be buried among them, and to 13 whose graves in four of the concentrated cemeteries were destroyed by shell fire.

 

There was a cemetery in use during Aug 1915 - EPINETTE ROAD CEMETERY, HOUPLINES. This may be at map ref 36.I.5.C which is also the location of the battalion early August 1915. They were in fact supplying working parties and digging new trenches in 36.I.5.c around the time of his death. Trench 74 in diary (see post#7) is in fact pretty much bang on the grid ref supplied on the CR sheet.

 

This would make it an unlikely place for HQs to be although the diary places HQ about 500 yards to the NW of the CR ref. Still an unlikely spot. Perhaps EPINETTE ROAD CEMETERY, HOUPLINES was considered 'near' the Bn. HQs at 500 yards away?

 

The diary for July has the HQ moving from within Armentieres while out of the line to a farm house 1/4 mile N of La Chapelle d'Armentieres when in the line. At a push this could match up with the location in the diary.

 

There is a decent map in the 50th Div diary that shows the working area (piece 2807 page 348/701). It's a dispositions map 31/7/1915 but does mark the Bn. sector and multiple Bn. HQs in 36.I.10.

 

Going back to Strand, Ploegsteert Cemetery. His CR is odd in stating 'Memorial Plot' but gives grave references for the 3 men. Then you have original grave references changed later for other grave references. The one Marianne's interested in does existed as an original grave reference which is occupied by someone else, the later grave reference doesn't seem to exist.

 

Odd that they have marked out plots X.B.1-10 but have no records for those graves!!

TEW

[Marianne]

I have this trench map which locates the battalion HQ at the time. 

I have started to look into other nearby cemeteries and noted this one so far - 

Chapelle D’Armentiers old military cemetery has 3 unknowns. 

I am not sure how to obtain the concentration records if anyone could point me in the right direction? 

Thank you so much again everyone for your continued knowledge and support. 

[TEW]

I'll have to compare your map to one with a grid. The concentration sheet you have has Houplines written to left of name and I suspect the map ref on the sheet is for EPINETTE ROAD CEMETERY, HOUPLINES. The map ref in the diary could be for the HQ.

The blue line on your map is where the battalion were digging on that day and the map ref on concentration sheet is very close to the blue line, much closer than HQ. My usual method of obtaining all concentration sheets for a cemetery doesn't work. Maybe someone else can help.

TEW

[Marianne]

Thank you TEW. I did do an overlay between the map we were sent and a grid map. It might be no use, but I’ll attach it anyway for your information. 

[TEW]

Yes I see what you mean. HQs is on your map at the position identified in the diary. I think they may have worded things awkwardly in the diary. Perhaps they mean he was buried near HQs and give the map ref for HQs not the burial. The location on the concentration sheet is about 700 yards to the SE. The two locations are more or less connected by Plank Avenue. The burial location would have been sent to a Graves Registration Unit who tried to find it post war but failed, probably down to damage to the area. Someone may have tried to replace the cross but moved it enough to make it impossible to find remains post war. If someone can get the concentration sheets and see how many references there are to 36.I.5.c.1.5 that would help to know if they came from Epinette Rd cemetery.

TEW

Edited 23 November , 2018 by TEW

[Marianne]

Thank you TEW. Hopefully someone is going to get the concentration sheets later for me tonight. If they don’t, is there a way I can look for them myself? Can you look for them by area or is it via each cemetery? 

[TEW]

They are kept together by cemetery. You can't just go through them one at a time as they are linked to mens' records. There are ways around this, by using a browser add-on it is possible (hopefully) to download all the sheets for a cemetery in one go. There are some fiddly stages but as my usual method no longer works I don't think giving instructions will help. I'm also hoping someone else can do it.

TEW

[jay dubaya]

TEW, I’ve offered to do this when I’m home later, I have already found two men with similar map ref concentrations. Quick method would be to date search the regiments from the infantry brigade and check those that have known graves, most if not all were concentrations post war so should have GRU reports

 

Jon

[Marianne]

Thank you both so much. I really appreciate you taking your time to help. 

[Aurel Sercu]

Sorry, this may be totally irrelevant. But it reminded me of a piece of research of a while ago. A man's Memorial Cross was supposed to be in a certain cemetery near Ypres. I didn't find it there (neither on the plan, nor when I went there). Then I leanred: "Of course not. There was a time that Memorial crosses were moved to cemeteries and put up there (as a Memorial Cross in a special plot, as a headstone with no remains). And 'simultaneously' the man had his name on the Menin Gate Memorial to the Missing. But then later (when?) it was decided that one cannot have both. When the soldier had his name on the Menin Gate, then the Memorial Cross was to be removed. And it was.

Again, irrelevant maybe and not at all to the point, but I have not taken the time to read the whole Topic.

 

Aurel

[TEW]

I've managed to down load the conc reports for Strand, Ploegsteert. 182 of them.

There are other re-burials from the same map ref as Marianne's conc sheet, these are men whose remains were found and taken to Strand, Ploegsteert.

I'll have to look carefully over the weekend.

TEW

[Marianne]

That’s amazing TEW. Thank you so much. Let me know if there’s anything I can do or help with. 

[TEW]

Well, I've been through the CRs for Strand Cemeterey and the map reference 36.I.5.C.1.5. occurs 6 times, you have three on your original sheet, all with 'No Remains'. There are another three men with remains found who were re-buried in Strand Cemetery.

2538 Pte. C S Ellyard 4/East Yorks. Died 6/8/1915. No Remains
XXXX 13/8/1915. No Remains
3/20741 Pte H White 8/DLI. Died 9/8/1915. No Remains

 

1541 Pte G Dowding 4/East Yorks. Died 26/7/1915
1601 Pte T Meadley 4/East Yorks. Died 29/7/1915
2584 Pte Heard 4/East Yorks. Died 29/7/1915.

 

Bear in mind the grid reference is a 50yd x 50yd square and we don't know if the 6 burials in 1915 were grouped together or scattered within the square. The 1920 Graves Registration Unit either identified the location by way of the 6 visible crosses or they had a 1915 record of the 6 burials. All that can be said is that for some reason they found three bodies marked by crosses and failed to find the other three even though crosses were in place. Most probably this is down to shelling of the grave area and the distubance of three of the crosses. Perhaps someone attempted to replace the crosses and did so but got the wrong place.

 

I still think the map reference given in the diary has been a bit of a red-herring in that although it seems to say Pte. X buried near HQs [map reference given] the map reference is actually for Btn. HQ not the burial location. As I said, the HQ and the burial spot are about 700 yards apart but are more or less connected by Plank Avenue.

TEW

[Marianne]

Thank you for that TEW. Are there other unknowns at Strand that you didn’t manage to download or was that them all? Something else that may be worth noting was that Pte White was killed on 9/8 and the battalion remained in the trenches meaning he may have been buried near the line. On 13/8, the day of my GFs death, the battalion went back to billets at the Asylum so if they had collected the dead, he may have been buried near there. Can you think of any other CR it may be worth me checking for unknowns?  I know it’s most likely we will never know but given that the man writing the log took the time to write the reference, I just want to check all avenues that I can. 

Thank you once again for your continued support and help. 

 

Marianne 

[TEW]

I haven't downloaded all the Grave Registration forms only the CRs. According to CWGC there are 354 men buried in Strand Cemetery that are unidentified. The CRs for Strand showed about 90 'Special Memorials' to men whose crosses were found by the concentration teams but not their remains. I don't think these memorials will still be present.

 

I'm not clear why other burial locations are being checked, the group of six men were buried at 36.I.5.c.1.5 and six crosses were found there with 3 sets of remains. Once a concentration team had failed to find the remains that tends to be that. I think it unlikely there will be another concentration sheet relating to another cemetery.

 

There were other concentrations from the area into HOUPLINES COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION and possibly others. There are around 125 sheets for Houplines I'll get these and have a look.

 

If you want to see the CRs for Strand Cemetery you can download them from this link. I've checked to see if Houplines is available but sadly it isn't.

TEW

[Aurel Sercu]

TEW,

 

As to : "The CRs for Strand showed about 90 'Special Memorials' to men whose crosses were found by the concentration teams but not their remains. I don't think these memorials will still be present."

 

Neither do I. It seems to me that Strand Military Cemetery only has two dozen Special Memorials

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/16400/strand-military-cemetery/

If I may point out again (see my posting of last Friday #38), Memorial crosses were removed when the names were on a Memorial to the Missing.

 

Aurel

[Marianne]

Thanks for that TEW and Aurel. I suppose my purpose in looking at other burial locations is because I’m not totally convinced he was buried at the location of the cross. Perhaps the diary entry is a red-herring but I just find it strange that the person writing has taken the time to write a map reference. Why write a reference of a HQ that is already detailed in previous pages? Also the definition of ‘near’ is down to interpretation and speculation but I would be inclined to think that the map reference where the cross was found was more ‘near’ to the line than the HQ so seems a strange reference point when the line was not exactly near the HQ. 

It will probably come to nothing like you say but I would always wonder if I hadn’t checked and exhausted the possibility of ‘what if’. 

[laughton]

Sorry, I did not know this was a topic as I was dealing on message with Marianne. 

Also, there is a simple solution if you lost Firefox "Down Them All". UNINSTALL it completely from your computer. Go here and get the old one I saved. Install and then MAKE SURE our set it to NEVER upgrade.

 

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/b1e3xdd07b7u1/Firefox+56.02+for+DownThemAll

 

 

[TEW]

Well, they had previously described where HQ was but that is the only instance of a map ref being used for HQ. Some diaries have HQ's map location written at least once a day.

 

Hope you don't mind me putting this up, I've kept his name out.

 

Concentration Report from Strand Military Cemetery

Centre row; anyone know what the 43/c Houplines 2/1 is all about. This extract has the ref 97/e for the sheet with others in sequence 96/e, 97/e & 98/e.

 

So 43/c may be a bona fide sheet reference somewhere. Why Houplines? There were a few other cemeteries around Houplines at the time. I'm just looking through concentration reports for HOUPLINES COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (formerly Houplines New Military Cemetery?) 36.C.28.a.4.5. and there are concentrations into this cemetery from Marianne's square 36.I.c. These have a sheet ref of 37/e & 38/e.

 

It does seem a bit odd that two different teams were concentrating from the battlefield at 36.I.C into two different cemeteries 6 months apart.

TEW

[Marianne]

I had wondered about those notes TEW. That would be great if anyone might have an idea about the meaning. Just another bit of a mystery - as I said in the background story, my family were told he was killed in action with no known grave etc. A few months ago, when I first started looking into all of this again, I came across his dog tag which was hidden within possessions of his wife. Along with this was a postcard sent to him from a friend, definitely posted, with a stamp mark of Aug 3rd 1915. He was killed Aug 13th 1915. The dog tag is in a bit of a state, battered and scratched, evidence of mud and what I strongly believe is blood on the string. The question would be how these came to be back in the possession of my great grandmother? The concentration record states ‘no effects forwarded to base’. 

Would there be any records I could look into that might offer any other clues about this? I’ll attach a photograph of the dog tag to see what you think. 

[TEW]

Interesting to have the dog tag! Not something I know a great deal about but I think that one's a private purchase as his issued ones would have been fibre versions? If he was wearing this in Aug 1915 it would be unusual to remove it before death so the postcard date doesn't quite match up.

It could also be a duplicate, may be he left one at home and had a replacement?

I've checked some GRRF forms for Houplines Cemetery and they actually run from 1/c to 36/c, so the elusive 43/c is missing.

TEW

[jay dubaya]

Well you have one of his dog tags Marianne, this was most likely forwarded to his widow by his commanding officer who was likely to have been given this by the pals that initially buried him on 13th August 1915. 

Added to the 'Unknown' buried in The Strand that Richard has pointed out there is another 'Unknown' buried in Houplines New Military Cemetery, now Houplines Communal Cemetery Extension, this body was recovered from I 5 c.6.3.

I'll attach here the map refs from IWGC for these cemeteries, it doesn't add anything but they may be of use...

 

Houplines Communal Cemetery (36c) 28 a.45.10

Houplines L'Epinette Road Cemetery 27 b.8.3

Houplines New Military Cemetery 28 a 4.5

Houplines Old Military Cemetery 21 b.8.2

 

Also I attach the given map refs from the WD and CRs

 

I 4 b.3.6 - from 8th Btn. DLI WD. I'm inclined to believe that this is reference to Btn HQ and not an actual burial location.

I 5 a.6.7 - location of UBS now interred at The Strand Cemetery

I 5 c.1.5 - CR for 4 named soldiers only one body recovered and now interred at The Strand Cemetery (3 no remains found)

I 5 c.3.9 - CR for 1 named soldier now interred at The Strand

I 5 c.5.4 - CR for 3 NZ soldiers 2 named, all 3 now interred at Houplines Communal Cemetery Extension

I 5 c.6.3 - location of UBS now interred Houplines New Military Cemetery now Houplines CCE

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 November , 2018 by jay dubaya
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