BP1 Posted 14 November , 2018 Share Posted 14 November , 2018 So, this is a real shot in the dark but if there’s anyone out there who has any idea – or can point me in the right direction – it’s all much appreciated. My grandfather was Indian and fought in India for the British (obviously, given India was part of the Empire) during WW1. All I have to go on are these medals, my mum’s 74 and she was a child when he died and there’s no family record at all. The chaps at the army rumour service forum were very helpful and I have a bit of info from them, but they suggested posting here as you may be able to throw some more light on them. What we know is that he was a doctor, but we don’t know what regiment he was attached to (but we think it was The Indian Medical Department). Seriously, any closet investigators out there – I’d love to hear from you… Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 14 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2018 (edited) We found the medals with this letter dated 1924: 16.10.27 KGO Light Cavalry Letter (1924).pdf Edited 14 November , 2018 by BP1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 14 November , 2018 Share Posted 14 November , 2018 First one? Don't know - the other three are the Victory Medal, British War Medal and 1914-15 star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDWARD1 Posted 14 November , 2018 Share Posted 14 November , 2018 The Indian Army Meritorius Service Medal 1888, George V Kaiser - I - Hind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 14 November , 2018 Admin Share Posted 14 November , 2018 Hi BP1 and welcome to the forum You may be interested in this thread about the IMS Also for the medals you may get lucky by browsing the India section here http://www.medals.org.uk/ Good luck with your research David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil 2242 Posted 14 November , 2018 Share Posted 14 November , 2018 (edited) Can you quote us the full rank, unit etc on the rims of the other medals? On that Star, I think it's 2nd class senior sub-assistant surgeon, Indian Medical Department The regiment mentioned in the letter is the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry Edited 14 November , 2018 by Neil 2242 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil 2242 Posted 14 November , 2018 Share Posted 14 November , 2018 In the Gazette: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31277/supplement/4549 for services in Aden, if you scroll back a page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 14 November , 2018 Share Posted 14 November , 2018 https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bqw7gb/antiques-roadshow-series-41-2-world-war-i-special The Antique Road Show has an interesting section on a family looking for more information on their grandfather who was an Indian surgeon in the Indian Army, this might add to your knowledge to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 17 hours ago, DavidOwen said: Hi BP1 and welcome to the forum You may be interested in this thread about the IMS Also for the medals you may get lucky by browsing the India section here http://www.medals.org.uk/ Good luck with your research David Thanks for this, yes very interesting. will definitely post there also to chase up some leads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 17 hours ago, Neil 2242 said: Can you quote us the full rank, unit etc on the rims of the other medals? On that Star, I think it's 2nd class senior sub-assistant surgeon, Indian Medical Department The regiment mentioned in the letter is the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry Yes, (please bear with me as I have no military background and am learning most of these acronyms as I go) but the inscriptions read: · The 1914-15 star has this stamped on the back – 2/CL. SR. S. A. S. HARBANS LAL (that’s his name) I. M. D · The War Medal 1914-1918 has this stamped on the rim – S-A-S. HARBANS LAL, I. M. D · The Victory Medal has this stamped on the rim – S-A-S. HARBANS LAL, I. M. D · The Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal is trickier (the inscription is in cursive writing and it’s not as clear as the others) – 669 1st CL Sub Asst Surg(illegible) Harbans Lal. F. S. M. (another letter that is illegible) So, looking at the inscriptions together I took it to possibly mean: My grandfather (name: Harbans Lal) was a Second Class, Senior, Sub Assistant Surgeon in the Indian Medical Department when awarded the 1914-15 star but was then promoted to First Class, Senior, Sub Assistant Surgeon by the time the Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal is awarded. 16 hours ago, Rob B said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bqw7gb/antiques-roadshow-series-41-2-world-war-i-special The Antique Road Show has an interesting section on a family looking for more information on their grandfather who was an Indian surgeon in the Indian Army, this might add to your knowledge to date. Thanks Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 17 hours ago, KGB said: First one? Don't know - the other three are the Victory Medal, British War Medal and 1914-15 star. Thanks KGB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 17 hours ago, Neil 2242 said: In the Gazette: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31277/supplement/4549 for services in Aden, if you scroll back a page Thanks Neil, Someone on the Army Rumer Service forum put me onto the following: There’s an entry in the Indian Army List of Jan 1920 of a Harbans Lal who has appointed as a (I think doctor) at the Medical School Lahore on 23 April 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil 2242 Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 58 minutes ago, BP1 said: · The Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal is trickier (the inscription is in cursive writing and it’s not as clear as the others) – 669 1st CL Sub Asst Surg(illegible) Harbans Lal. F. S. M. (another letter that is illegible) I imagine the unit is ISMD as per that gazette entry. But you're right, cursive script can be tough to decipher. From what I can see, the King George's Own Light Cavalry served in Aden as well (not numbered the 8th at that point though). He was probably attached to the regiment, as the medal issue seem to be through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 (edited) He was in the Indian Medical Department IMD, previously called the Indian Subordinate Medical Department, ISMD For details, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Apothecary https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Apothecary There were two sections in the Indian Medical Department, British and Indian. The Fibiwiki page has been written with a slant towards the British section, but the records available are similar, at least in the WW1 period. The image above is https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278912/page/n1335 The description Temporary refers to the fact that he was appointed for the duration of war, or a longer period as required, and was not a permanent employee of the Indian Army. There are many more Indian Army Lists available online, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "Indian Army List online", so hopefully you will be able to trace him further. https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online He was appointed, strictly speaking attached, as regimental doctor with the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry. He would however, have remained in the Indian Medical Department. I'm not too sure when this was, but perhaps you will find this mentioned in the Indian Army Lists. See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page https://wiki.fibis.org/w/8th_King_George's_Own_Light_Cavalry Cheers Maureen Edited 15 November , 2018 by Maureene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Thanks Maureen, there’s a lot of really useful readings to go thorough here. Am I right in thinking then that as a temporary sub assistant surgeon, and as you say attached to the army rather than a serving soldier, he would not have been given a rank (such as Jemadar / Subadar etc.)? 12 minutes ago, Maureene said: He was in the Indian Medical Department IMD, previously called the Indian Subordinate Medical Department, ISMD For details, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Apothecary https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Apothecary There were two sections in the Indian Medical Department, British and Indian. The Fibiwiki page has been written with a slant towards the British section, but the records available are similar, at least in the WW1 period. The image above is https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278912/page/n1335 The description Temporary refers to the fact that he was appointed for the duration of war, or a longer period as required, and was not a permanent employee of the Indian Army. There are many more Indian Army Lists available online, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "Indian Army List online", so hopefully you will be able to trace him further. https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online His last appointment, strictly speaking an attachment, appears to have been as regimental doctor with the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry. He would however, have remained in the Indian Medical Department. See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page https://wiki.fibis.org/w/8th_King_George's_Own_Light_Cavalry Cheers Maureen Thanks Maureen, there’s a lot of really useful readings to go thorough here. Am I right in thinking then that as a temporary sub assistant surgeon, and as you say attached to the army rather than a serving soldier, he would not have been given a rank (such as Jemadar / Subadar etc.)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Those are the basic WW1 trio, given to whomever enlisted as K1, so probably joined in the first few days and weeks of the war. Known as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, the Old Contemptibles got the 1914 Star (Mons Star). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Looking at the London Gazette link provided in post 7,which states 1st class Sub Assistant Surgeon (relative rank Subadar) I think the person in the image you have provided above is a different person. The image is for a Temporary Sub-Assistant Surgeon 3rd class, whereas your GF was Ist class (as confirmed by one of the medals) All doctors in the Indian Medical Service had the rank of Warrant Officers, but the more senior had Honorary Officer status. A 1st class Sub-Assistant Surgeon ranked as a Subadar, but whether he was called Subadar I do not know. According to Wikipedia "Indian Meritorious Service Medal (for Indian Army)", this medal was awarded for long and meritorious service medal by Indian non-commissioned officers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Meritorious_Service_Medal_(for_Indian_Army) This confirms that he was officially a Warrant Officer but also indicates he was probably a career doctor in the Indian Army, as he had long service. This to me confirms that the image above referring to Temporary is not him. Both the Indian Medical Service and Indian Medical Department were part of the Indian Army. If a doctor served with a regiment, he was attached to the regiment, but was still officially part of the Indian Medical Service or Indian Medical Department, rather than officially part of the regiment. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 5 hours ago, KGB said: Those are the basic WW1 trio, given to whomever enlisted as K1, Not everyone who enlisted in 1914 or 1915 or K1 qualified. They had to serve in an active theatre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Hi, what’s a K1? (Sorry I’m very new to this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 The men who responded to Kitchener`s original call for volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 7 hours ago, KGB said: Those are the basic WW1 trio, given to whomever enlisted as K1, so probably joined in the first few days and weeks of the war. Known as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, the Old Contemptibles got the 1914 Star (Mons Star). 2 hours ago, PhilB said: Not everyone who enlisted in 1914 or 1915 or K1 qualified. They had to serve in an active theatre. Off topic for a doctor in the IMD, but saying a 14-15 Star trio was given to whomever enlisted as K1 is an over-simplification. As Phil points out, not all K1 Kitchener volunteers got Stars. Also many K2 Kitchener volunteers got the 14-15 Star trio (including my own GF) and even some of the K3/K4 Kitchener volunteers. Small numbers of K1 Kitchener volunteers in the KRRC and RB went out as replenishment drafts early enough for Mons Star trios. Doubtless this happened in other regiments too. Regulars fetched back from overseas garrison duties - e.g. 3/ & 4/ KRRC and 3/ & 4/RB in India - did not get into theatre early enough to get Mons Star trios, but got 14-15 Star trios instead. Also some of the TF battalions - e.g. 10/KLR (Liverpool Scottish), 1/14th Londons (London Scottish) and 1/16th Londons (QWR) - went out early enough to have Mons Star trio entitlement. There are probably other variations I've forgotten! A lot more complex. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Getting back 'on topic', the award of the 1914-15 Star to Harbans Lal, shows he must have entered a theatre of war before 01 Jan 1916: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/ A summary of the defined theatres of war is via the list of theatre codes here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/medal-roll-theatre-codes/ The medal regulations and associated Army Orders etc. are more specific - AO20 of 1919 gives the definition of the Asiatic theatres for example, but this list is probably sufficient. You'll see Aden is listed. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Presumably our man was attached to one of 8KGOLC's predecessors- The 5th Regiment Madras Native Cavalry was re-designated as the 1st Madras Native Cavalry in 1788 and in 1816 its name was changed to 1 Madras Light Cavalry. The Regiment was yet again re-named as the 1st Regiment of Madras Lancers in 1886, by which way it was known till the turn of the century, when its nomenclature was changed to 1st Madras Lancers. In 1903 it was re-named as the 26th Light Cavalry and three years later it became the Prince of Wales Own Light Cavalry and then in 1910, it became the 26th King George’s Own Light Cavalry. The year 1826 witnessed the birth of another illustrious regiment, the 4th Nizam’s Cavalry, raised as part of the Hyderabad Cavalry. It later re-christened as the 30th Lancers and also came to be known as Gordon’s Horse after Sir John Gordon. In 1922, the two regiments were amalgamated to form the 8th King George’s Own Light Cavalry, inheriting in the process, the traditions and rich heritages of two cultures. After India attained independence, the regiment was renamed as the 8th Light Cavalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 15 November , 2018 Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Could his be a relative living in London in 1939 Harbans Lal on the 1939 Register 1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION Household (1 Person)7/8 Brunswick Square , St Pancras, London, England Start free family treeView original imagePrint FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER Harbans Lal 28 Sep 1911 Male Medical Student Single 33 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1 Posted 15 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2018 Gosh, there’s a lot of information here and all within a day of my original posting. Thanks so much everyone! I’m going to work through this and will post other queries as they come. If anything comes to mind, please do post. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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