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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Does have any background knowledge of these WW1 medals?


BP1

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So, this is a real shot in the dark but if there’s anyone out there who has any idea – or can point me in the right direction – it’s all much appreciated.

My grandfather was Indian and fought in India for the British (obviously, given India was part of the Empire) during WW1. All I have to go on are these medals, my mum’s 74 and she was a child when he died and there’s no family record at all.

The chaps at the army rumour service forum were very helpful and I have a bit of info from them, but they suggested posting here as you may be able to throw some more light on them. What we know is that he was a doctor, but we don’t know what regiment he was attached to (but we think it was The Indian Medical Department).

Seriously, any closet investigators out there – I’d love to hear from you… Cheers.

Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal Obverse.JPG

Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal Reverse.JPG

Victory Medal Obverse.JPG

Victory Medal Reverse.JPG

War Medal 1914-1918 Obverse.JPG

War Medal 1914-1918 Reverse.JPG

1914-15 Star Obverse.JPG

1914-15 Star Reverse.JPG

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First one? Don't know - the other three are the Victory Medal, British War Medal and 1914-15 star.

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Can you quote us the full rank, unit etc on the rims of the other medals?

On that Star, I think it's 2nd class senior sub-assistant surgeon, Indian Medical Department

 

The regiment mentioned in the letter is the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry

Edited by Neil 2242
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bqw7gb/antiques-roadshow-series-41-2-world-war-i-special The Antique Road Show has an interesting section on a family looking for more information on their grandfather who was an Indian surgeon in the Indian Army, this might add to your knowledge to date.

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17 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Hi BP1 and welcome to the forum

You may be interested in this thread about the IMS 

 

Also for the medals you may get lucky by browsing the India section here http://www.medals.org.uk/

 

Good luck with your research

 

David

Thanks for this, yes very interesting. will definitely post there also to chase up some leads! 

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17 hours ago, Neil 2242 said:

Can you quote us the full rank, unit etc on the rims of the other medals?

On that Star, I think it's 2nd class senior sub-assistant surgeon, Indian Medical Department

 

The regiment mentioned in the letter is the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry

Yes, (please bear with me as I have no military background and am learning most of these acronyms as I go) but the inscriptions read:

 

·         The 1914-15 star has this stamped on the back –

2/CL. SR. S. A. S.
HARBANS LAL (that’s his name)
I. M. D

 

·         The War Medal 1914-1918 has this stamped on the rim –

S-A-S. HARBANS LAL, I. M. D

 

·         The Victory Medal has this stamped on the rim –

S-A-S. HARBANS LAL, I. M. D

 

·         The Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal is trickier (the inscription is in cursive writing and it’s not as clear as the others) –

669 1st CL Sub Asst Surg(illegible)

Harbans Lal. F. S. M. (another letter that is illegible)

 

So, looking at the inscriptions together I took it to possibly mean:

My grandfather (name: Harbans Lal) was a Second Class, Senior, Sub Assistant Surgeon in the Indian Medical Department when awarded the 1914-15 star but was then promoted to First Class, Senior, Sub Assistant Surgeon by the time the Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal is awarded.

16 hours ago, Rob B said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bqw7gb/antiques-roadshow-series-41-2-world-war-i-special The Antique Road Show has an interesting section on a family looking for more information on their grandfather who was an Indian surgeon in the Indian Army, this might add to your knowledge to date.

Thanks Rob

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17 hours ago, Neil 2242 said:

In the Gazette:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31277/supplement/4549

 

for services in Aden, if you scroll back a page

Thanks Neil,

Someone on the Army Rumer Service forum put me onto the following:

There’s an entry in the Indian Army List of Jan 1920 of a Harbans Lal who has appointed as a (I think doctor) at the Medical School Lahore on 23 April 1918.

16.10.22 Indian Army list Jan 1920.jpg

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58 minutes ago, BP1 said:

 

·         The Indian Army Meritorious Service Medal is trickier (the inscription is in cursive writing and it’s not as clear as the others) –

669 1st CL Sub Asst Surg(illegible)

Harbans Lal. F. S. M. (another letter that is illegible)

I imagine the unit is ISMD as per that gazette entry. But you're right, cursive script can be tough to decipher.

 

From what I can see, the King George's Own Light Cavalry served in Aden as well (not numbered the 8th at that point though).

He was probably attached to the regiment, as the medal issue seem to be through them.

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He was in the Indian Medical Department IMD, previously called the Indian Subordinate Medical Department, ISMD

For  details, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Apothecary

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Apothecary

There were two sections in the Indian Medical Department,  British and Indian. The Fibiwiki page has been written with a slant towards the British section, but the records available are similar, at least in the WW1 period.

 

The image above is  https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278912/page/n1335   The description Temporary refers to the fact that he was appointed for the duration of war, or a longer period as required, and was not a permanent employee of the Indian Army.

 

There are many more Indian Army Lists available online, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "Indian Army List online", so hopefully you will be able to trace him further.

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online 

 

He was appointed, strictly speaking  attached,   as regimental doctor with the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry. He would however, have remained in the Indian Medical Department. I'm not too sure when this was, but perhaps you will find this mentioned in the Indian Army Lists.

See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page https://wiki.fibis.org/w/8th_King_George's_Own_Light_Cavalry 

 

Cheers

Maureen

Edited by Maureene
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Thanks Maureen, there’s a lot of really useful readings to go thorough here. Am I right in thinking then that as a temporary sub assistant surgeon, and as you say attached to the army rather than a serving soldier, he would not have been given a rank (such as Jemadar / Subadar etc.)?

12 minutes ago, Maureene said:

He was in the Indian Medical Department IMD, previously called the Indian Subordinate Medical Department, ISMD

For  details, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Apothecary

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Apothecary

There were two sections in the Indian Medical Department,  British and Indian. The Fibiwiki page has been written with a slant towards the British section, but the records available are similar, at least in the WW1 period.

 

The image above is  https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278912/page/n1335   The description Temporary refers to the fact that he was appointed for the duration of war, or a longer period as required, and was not a permanent employee of the Indian Army.

 

There are many more Indian Army Lists available online, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "Indian Army List online", so hopefully you will be able to trace him further.

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online 

 

His last appointment, strictly speaking an attachment,  appears to have been as regimental doctor with the 8th King George's Own Light Cavalry. He would however, have remained in the Indian Medical Department. See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/8th_King_George's_Own_Light_Cavalry 

 

Cheers

Maureen

Thanks Maureen, there’s a lot of really useful readings to go thorough here. Am I right in thinking then that as a temporary sub assistant surgeon, and as you say attached to the army rather than a serving soldier, he would not have been given a rank (such as Jemadar / Subadar etc.)?

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Those are the basic WW1 trio, given to whomever enlisted as K1, so probably joined in the first few days and weeks of the war. Known as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, the Old Contemptibles got the 1914 Star (Mons Star). 

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Looking at the London Gazette  link provided in post 7,which states 1st class Sub Assistant Surgeon (relative rank Subadar) I think the person in the image you have provided above is a different person. The image is for a Temporary Sub-Assistant Surgeon 3rd class, whereas your GF was Ist class (as confirmed by one of the medals)

 

All doctors in the Indian Medical Service had the rank of Warrant Officers, but the more senior had Honorary Officer status. A 1st class Sub-Assistant Surgeon ranked as a Subadar, but whether he was called Subadar I do not know.

 

According to Wikipedia "Indian Meritorious Service Medal (for Indian Army)", this medal was awarded for long and meritorious service medal by  Indian non-commissioned officers.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Meritorious_Service_Medal_(for_Indian_Army)

This confirms that he was officially a Warrant Officer but also indicates he was probably a career doctor in the Indian Army, as he had long service. This to me confirms that the image above referring to Temporary is not him.

 

Both the Indian Medical Service and Indian Medical Department were part of the Indian Army. If a doctor served with a regiment, he was attached to the regiment,  but was still officially part of the Indian Medical Service or Indian Medical Department, rather than officially part of the regiment.

 

Cheers

Maureen

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5 hours ago, KGB said:

Those are the basic WW1 trio, given to whomever enlisted as K1, 

Not everyone who enlisted in 1914 or 1915 or K1 qualified. They had to serve in an active theatre.

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7 hours ago, KGB said:

Those are the basic WW1 trio, given to whomever enlisted as K1, so probably joined in the first few days and weeks of the war. Known as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred, the Old Contemptibles got the 1914 Star (Mons Star). 

 

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

Not everyone who enlisted in 1914 or 1915 or K1 qualified. They had to serve in an active theatre.

 

Off topic for a doctor in the IMD, but saying a 14-15 Star trio was given to whomever enlisted as K1 is an over-simplification.

 

As Phil points out, not all K1 Kitchener volunteers got Stars.  Also many K2 Kitchener volunteers got the 14-15 Star trio (including my own GF) and even some of the K3/K4 Kitchener volunteers.

 

Small numbers of K1 Kitchener volunteers in the KRRC and RB went out as replenishment drafts early enough for Mons Star trios.  Doubtless this happened in other regiments too.

 

Regulars fetched back from overseas garrison duties - e.g. 3/ & 4/ KRRC and 3/ & 4/RB in India - did not get into theatre early enough to get Mons Star trios, but got 14-15 Star trios instead.

 

Also some of the TF battalions - e.g. 10/KLR (Liverpool Scottish), 1/14th Londons (London Scottish) and 1/16th Londons (QWR) - went out early enough to have Mons Star trio entitlement.

 

There are probably other variations I've forgotten!  A lot more complex.

 

Mark

 

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Getting back 'on topic', the award of the 1914-15 Star to Harbans Lal, shows he must have entered a theatre of war before 01 Jan 1916:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/

 

A summary of the defined theatres of war is via the list of theatre codes here:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/medal-roll-theatre-codes/

 

The medal regulations and associated Army Orders etc. are more specific - AO20 of 1919 gives the definition of the Asiatic theatres for example, but this list is probably sufficient.

 

You'll see Aden is listed.

 

Mark

 

 

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Presumably our man was attached to one of 8KGOLC's predecessors-

 

 

The 5th Regiment Madras Native Cavalry was re-designated as the 1st Madras Native Cavalry in 1788 and in 1816 its name was changed to 1 Madras Light Cavalry. 
 

The Regiment was yet again re-named as the 1st Regiment of Madras Lancers in 1886, by which way it was known till the turn of the century, when its nomenclature was changed to 1st Madras Lancers. 
 

In 1903 it was re-named as the 26th Light Cavalry and three years later it became the Prince of Wales Own Light Cavalry and then in 1910, it became the 26th King George’s Own Light Cavalry. 
 

The year 1826 witnessed the birth of another illustrious regiment, the 4th Nizam’s Cavalry, raised as part of the Hyderabad Cavalry. It later re-christened as the 30th Lancers and also came to be known as Gordon’s Horse after Sir John Gordon. 
 

In 1922, the two regiments were amalgamated to form the 8th King George’s Own Light Cavalry, inheriting in the process, the traditions and rich heritages of two cultures. After India attained independence, the regiment was renamed as the 8th Light Cavalry. 
 

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Could his be a relative living in London in 1939

 

1939 Register, in association with The National Archive

Harbans Lal on the 1939 Register

1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION

Household (1 Person)7/8 Brunswick Square , St Pancras, London, England

  FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER  
  Harbans Lal 28 Sep 1911 Male Medical Student Single 33 7
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Gosh, there’s a lot of information here and all within a day of my original posting. Thanks so much everyone! I’m going to work through this and will post other queries as they come. If anything comes to mind, please do post.

 

Thanks again 

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