Pvt Daniel Cronin, G7981, Buffs (East Kent)

[JillB]

My Great Uncle died on the 15th September 1916 at the Somme, aged 17, and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. I am trying to confirm which battle he died in and understand it was in an attempt to take the Quadrilateral; this information was received with the kind help of the Regimental Association. Does this mean it was the Battle of Flers-Courcelette ? I believe the Buffs formed part of the 16th Brigade, 6th Division. If this is the case what is the best source material for details of this battle and for maps of where the battle took place and the location of the Quadrilateral. I am hoping to plan a visit for my family and location details would be very useful although when the time comes i am sure a guide will be needed in any case. Many thanks. 

  

[PRC]

2 hours ago, JillB said:

My Great Uncle died on the 15th September 1916 at the Somme, aged 17, and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. I am trying to confirm which battle he died in and understand it was in an attempt to take the Quadrilateral; this information was received with the kind help of the Regimental Association. Does this mean it was the Battle of Flers-Courcelette ? I believe the Buffs formed part of the 16th Brigade, 6th Division. If this is the case what is the best source material for details of this battle and for maps of where the battle took place and the location of the Quadrilateral. I am hoping to plan a visit for my family and location details would be very useful although when the time comes i am sure a guide will be needed in any case. Many thanks. 

  

Hi JillB and welcome to the Forum.

 

The 1st Buffs from the 16th Brigade were to the south of the Quadrilateral - it was the 1st Leicesters of the 16th and the 9th Norfolks, 71st Brigade to their north who tried to take the Quadrilateral directly. My write up of the losses the 9th Norfolk suffered on this day may help provide a bit of context.

One of the sources I quote on the tank involvement has a map of the area showing the relevant positions.

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/somme1916narratives/15-september-1916---xiv-corp-map

 

Given the experiences of the 9th Norfolks, perhaps it's fortuitous that the tanks intended to support 16th Brigade didn't arrive. I don't have anything specific to the 1st Buffs, but one of the other units in the 16th Brigade was the 8th Bedfords. There is a very useful web-site dedicated to the Bedfordshire Regiment which includes transcripts of the War Diaries. It has this for the 8th Bedfords on this day.

 

15 Sep 1916  Battalion ordered to take QUADRILATERAL assisted by the Heavy Section of the M.G. Corps with "TANKS" advance about 500 yds NE and dig in. Battn was in a position for attack about 4.30 a.m. ZERO hour 6.20 a.m. Three waves were supplied by D, D [sic] and A Coys under Capt Hatch [Robert Bernard Lawson HATCH, MC], 2/Lt Hodges [Archibald Gordon HODGES] and Lt Draisey [Edwin Roland Watts DRAISEY] respectively to attack the QUADRILATERAL, which was on our left flank, whilst B Coy co-operated by bombing down trench leading to it. At 6.0 a.m. heavy artillery opened slow barrage on Line MORVAL - LES BOEUFS. At ZERO hour (6.20 a.m.) intense artillery barrage opened and unluckily was cut short where our 3 companies were drawn up for the attack in shell holes. This mistake caused many casualties. Our attacking companies pushed forward and though supported by 1/The Buffs and later re-enforced by the 2/York & Lancaster Regt failed to take the position. "TANKS" did not arrive to assist and the position was not heavily shelled previous to the attack. Brigade ordered original trenches to be held and await orders. As battalion had suffered very severely in casualties, 6 Officers killed and 7 wounded we were relieved by 2/Y & L at 6.0.p.m. and put in brigade reserve in trenches S.E. of GUILLEMONT.

http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/8thbn/8thbtn1916diary.html

 

You could download the war diary for the battalion from the National Archive or if you have a subscription to Ancestry I believe you can view them there. By personal recommendation would be to go for the Brigade War Diary. Although the chunks available from the National Archive are usually smaller, they include copies of the Battalion War Diary for all the units that made up the brigade. In my experience these are frequently typed up, (all too often the Battalion War Diary is hand-written) and will contain appendices and maps that may well have gone "walkies" from the Battalion Diary. Which ever level you for they almost certainly won't mention Daniel by name.

 

On the National Archive website the 1st Battalion War for 1916 is held under reference WO 95/1608/2 here

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14017173

16th Infantry Brigade for the period 1st January to 30th September 1916 is held under reference WO 95/1605/3 here

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053211

 

It looks like Daniel qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. The implication of that is that he first arrived in a Theatre of War, (most likely France and Flanders) after the 31st December 1915, as there are additional service medals for those who saw service earlier.

 

Hope that provides you with a start in your search.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[JillB]

Thank you very much for the info Peter. I read your Sept 2016 article with interest and the links you gave me have both given me a very useful map and an account of the orders for the Buffs for the 15th Sept 1916. It certainly makes chilling reading to know that my 17 year old Great Uncle, along with many hundreds of other young men, would not live to see out that day. It’s beyond anything I can imagine. Thank you again for your help. 

[PRC]

Looking at the Commonwealth war Graves Commission (CWGC) website it looks like circa 130 men of the 1st Battalion died on this day and it seems likely that similarly to the Norfolks they were all originally posted as missing. Some of the bodies were found on the battlefield after the war was over and were subsequently reburied in one of the CWGC maintained cemeteries.If you check out the web-pages for those individuals you weill see that the CWGC has attached a number of documents. For our purposes the key ones are the Concentration Reports and the Grave Registration Report. The Concentration Reports detail where the body was found and when it was exhumed and moved to its current resting place. Howevere these reports won't just detail one individual - quite often there were a number of bodies at the same or nearby location. For those recovered from the battlefield they would start off as an Unknown British Soldier and hopefully it would be possible to identify them from personal effects found with the body. Sometimes this identification is shown on the Concentration Report and sometimes the Grave Registration report, so you need to check both.

 

These reports can give you a much better feel for where the fighting took place. That may give some direction to the places you want to visit. Please note I've not gone through all the names, just a sample. In the case of Unknown British Soldiers there is no way of knowing when they died - this area of the Somme was fought over multiple times. But they do now have a grave. You might want to consider 'adopting' one - it probably isn't your great uncle but if that soldier known only to god was found with other Buffs he just might be.

 

The body of Private G/6720 G C Reynolds was recoved from the battlefield in 1919. Originally recorded as an Unknown British Soldier, his body was found at map reference 57c.T.21.A.45 along with at least one other. Somewhere along the line he was identified as Private Reynolds although the records don’t show how. He was reburied in Guillemont Road Cemetery, Guillemont, in Grave 14 P 4. The unknown soldier recovered from the same location is in grave P 5. If you check out the Concentration Report attached to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website page for Private Reynolds, you’ll see that of the 15 bodies recovered and shown on the page only 4, including Private Reynolds were identified. They include another Buffs man, a Private of the 8th Bedfords and a Private of the 1/13 Londons.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/534635/reynolds,-/

 

The body of Private G/15510 R. Harris was recovered from the battlefield in 1919 at map reference 57c.T.20.b.9.3 along with Private 6788 Private A. Woodward. They were both reburied in Guillemont Road Cemetery – Woodward in Grave 12 J 1 and Harris in 12 J 2.

The same page of the report has:

 

57c.T.20.b.9.5 Two unknown British Soldiers – buried 12.J.3 & 4

 

57c.T.20.b.9.8 Two unknown British Soldiers. One was identified as Private 3/17550 H. Aldridge, 1st East Buffs, but this was subsequently scrubbed out – presumably that man had survived or his death elsewhere was known. They are buried in graves 12.J.5 & 10

 

57c.T.20.b.6.7 Private 5981 A. Randall, 1st East Kents and an Unknown British Soldier. Randall is in grave 12 J 7 and the U.B.S. in grave 12 J 6.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/534396/harris,-/

 

Plot 15 Row J at Guillemont has more men of the Buffs \ Unknown British Soldiers recovered from the same area in 1919. (See Concentration report attached to the webpage for Private L/10343 A. Nicholls).

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/534570/nicholls,-/

 

Plots 11 and 12 N have more unidentified British Soldiers some of whom were subsequently identified as men of the 1st Buffs who died on the 15th September 1916. (See Concentration Report attached to Lance-Corporal G/4569 Henry John Lake)

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/534492/lake,-henry-john/

 

The bodies of Lance-Corporal G/4870 W.V.Mundy and Private L/10527 L. J. Vicary weren’t found until 1930. Both were identified from their I.D. badges. They were found at map reference 57c.T.20.b.8.7. There were reburied at Serre Road Cemetery No.2 in graves 38.J.15 & 16.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/609473/mundy,-william-victor/

 

There are some whizzy guys here who can overlay those references onto modern maps – although blocks 20 and 21 can be seen on the map on the link I sent you.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 15 November , 2018 by PRC
Formatting issues

[JillB]

Peter I am amazed and very grateful that you have been able to provide such detail of the likely points of battle and the thought that my Great Uncle could have been recovered with these other souls. I hadn’t realised such a level of detail was available on-line and the map references prove the concentration of the fatalities at theses points. 

 

I will follow up in greater detail later but you have more than narrowed down my search. I also had the harrowing idea in my head that he was just abandoned but can see the efforts that were made to recover the men and identify them. Also of course it shows in stark detail that he was not alone and was no more, or less, ‘abandoned’ than his brothers in arms. 

 

This is is a very emotional roller coaster as I am gathering the information I wanted but seeing more closely than I would have imagined what war is really like when up close and personal. 

 

Your continued assistance is very much appreciated. I haven’t shared any of this yet with my family but they will be most grateful too. 

 

Kindrest regards

Jill

[JillB]

Hi Peter. You kindly helped me late last year regarding my Great Uncle and I followed up on many of the references you sent me and printed extracts from some of the sources you suggested. 

 

I am sorry to bother you again but today, for no particular reason, I went to the War Graves Commission website to look at my Great Uncles entry and was amazed to see documents under Grave Registration, Concentration and Panel list. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/757579/cronin,-daniel/#&gid=null&pid=2

 

The grave registration and concentration appear to show that Daniel  was exhumed and reburied in Guards Cemetery, Les Boeufs in August 1919 and shows a map reference of where he and his comrades were found, 57c.T.14.c.0.6. I am sure I have checked this site a number of times before so I don’t know whether new records are being added all the time or if I am just going mad !! 

 

Although this is amazing, I am not sure I can believe what I am seeing as his name also appears on the Thiepval memorial, the inscription on which would have been much later, I believe it was unveiled in the 1930’s. I obviously need to tread carefully here as a number of the names appearing on the concentration certificate also appear on Thiepval along with my Great Uncles and I wouldn’t want to raise any hopes for those families without being sure what this all means. Also I understand that if a grave exists the names are removed from Thiepval which may be distressing to those who have already visited. 

 

I have checked the names of those buried at Guards Cemetery and his name does not appear although the graves concentration report says it’s Plot 2, Row “A”. It does say it’s a memorial plot, with a memorial cross so I guess not individual graves. Maybe that’s why they are still included at Thiepval.

 

Could I trouble you to take a look at this for me to see if I have understood it correctly. Also what are your thoughts on the map reference of where Daniel was found. If I have understood the previous map link you sent me the location where he died is not south of the quadrilateral where the 1st Buffs were but closer to Ginchy. Of course I could have read the map completely wrong !! If you are able to send me a map link for this reference I would be much obliged as this is one of things I wanted to discover at the outset. 

 

I hope you don’t mind revisiting this as it was some time ago and you will have to refresh your memory of it. If you can shed any further light I would be much obliged.

 

Kind regards

Jill

 

[clk]

Hi Jill,

 

Hopefully Peter will be along shortly.

 

It does seem a bit strange. The concentration sheet does indicate that Daniel was reburied in the Guards Cemetery, but the list of men with known/identified graves there doesn't appear to show him on the list currently identified by the CWGC.

 

 

Men shouldn't have an identified grave, and be commemorated on a memorial. It should be one, or the other. I wonder if it was a case that he was reburied in the cemetery, but by the time the stone markers were erected, the grave had been lost, or perhaps a previous wooden marker no longer existed? I guess though at the time there would have been other cemetery burial records in existence. Might it be worth contacting the CWGC to see if they can tender an informed explanation?

 

If needed there is help on how to read map references here. This link should open up on a map from September 1916 with square 57c.T.14 in the centre. Sub square 'c' is on the bottom left of the 4 quarters within that square. The transparency slider will enable you to blend a view with the modern landscape. 

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Edited 8 March , 2019 by clk

[PRC]

4 hours ago, JillB said:

I have checked the names of those buried at Guards Cemetery and his name does not appear although the graves concentration report says it’s Plot 2, Row “A”. It does say it’s a memorial plot, with a memorial cross so I guess not individual graves. Maybe that’s why they are still included at Thiepval.

 

Hi Jill,

 

The CWGC should hopefully be able to give you a definative but on the face of it the 3rd Labour Company found a Memorial Cross in August 1919 at Map Ref 57c.T.14.c.0.6 with the names of a number of East Kent Regiment men on it who had died on the 15th September 1916. Given the level of detail and what look to be correct English spellings, (as opposed to a non-English speaking German trying to make sense of English names) I would say the memorial cross was erected by British Army troops and was probably contemporary to the deaths.

Such a cross might well sit atop a mass grave.

 

What happened when the men of the 3rd Labour Company opened up the grave is the bit where the CWGC come in - however to my mind there are three likely scenarios.

 

1) There is no-one buried beneath the Memorial Cross. It's relocated to the Guards Cemetery and may well still be there in Plot 2 Row A. As there are no bodies, the names are recorded on the Thiepval Memorial.

2) There is a mass grave with the right number of bodies but no means of knowing who is who or indeed if the names actually represent the bodies recovered. They are reburied at the Guards Cemtery as unknown soldiers and the names included on the Thiepval Memorial. However I'd normally expect to see instead a Special Memorial at the Guards Cemetery worded along the lines of "known to be buried in this Cemetery" - the history information for the cemetery on the CWGC website does say there are several in the Guards Cemetery.

3) There is a mass grave but with a discrepancy in the number of bodies versus the total number of names on the memorial, and individuals can't be identified. Similar outcome to 2) but with the special memorial worded "believed to be buried in this Cemetery"

 

Taking a look at the Grave Registration Report there are more names, (26), including some both before and after the 11 names on the Concentration Report. The Grave Registration Report itself is headed up as a continuation.  Working through the names on the Grave Registration Report, the first four, (8264 E Hall, 8750 C Halls, 8915 T Stickalls (Stickells) and 10650 F Harvey), have no Concentration Reports attached.

 - There is then the 11 names from the Concentration Report that includes Daniel Cronin.

 - The next 9 names on the Grave Registration Report then have another page of the Concentration Report

        See Lance Corporal L/8552 Percy Powell https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1549063/powell,-percy/

        and Private L/10275 William Blackhurst https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/769063/blackhurst,-william/

- The last two names, (9896 F Nevard and 8940 H Butler) also have yet another page of the Concentration report attached, which as well as those two adds another 6 names..

        See Private L/9892 Frederick Robert Nevard - https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1547282/nevard,-frederick-robert/

 

Probably only the CWGC could give you the definative, although as well as asking them you might want to post a separate request here to see if anyone visiting the Guards Cemetery in the near future can take a look.

 

Good luck and let us know the outcome,

Cheers,

Peter

[JillB]

 

On 08/03/2019 at 21:26, clk said:

 

Many thanks for your reply Chris and the link to the map reference which has been very helpful. I will follow up with the CWGC in due course as suggested. Kind regards, Jill 

[JillB]

 

 

[JillB]

Thnak you for your comprehensive reply Peter. I will look at this again in detail at the other names you have mentioned to get a clearer picture and then contact the CWGC as you suggest. If I find out anything useful I will let you know. Thnak you again for all your help. Kind regards Jill 

[JillB]

I note from my last two posts that I have been elevated to the rank of Lance-Corporal. I have no idea how this happened as I have never served in the forces and it isn’t showing in my account profile as an entry I can delete. I will contact the site Admistrators on Monday to have this deleted and in the meantime I apologise. It was certainly not intentional. 

Regards Jill 

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, JillB said:

I note from my last two posts that I have been elevated to the rank of Lance-Corporal. I have no idea how this happened as I have never served in the forces and it isn’t showing in my account profile as an entry I can delete. I will contact the site Admistrators on Monday to have this deleted and in the meantime I apologise. It was certainly not intentional. 

Regards Jill 

It's an automatic forum change - it increases as you post more often.

Craig

[JillB]

On 10/03/2019 at 11:13, ss002d6252 said:

It's an automatic forum change - it increases as you post more often.

Craig

Thank you for this Craig. I had no idea, very much a novice. I feel rather foolish but at least I haven't offended all the Lance-Corporals on the forum. Regards

[laughton]

Unless this is a rare situation, where it shows MEMORIAL CROSS or MEMORIAL PLOT on a COG-BR from the CWGC it generally means that is the location where the cross was found, not a body.

 

Initially there were MEMORIAL CROSSES in cemeteries across the Western Front, prior to the decision to build the major memorials for the missing. The list is endless, for all nationalities. Once it was decided that he names were to be placed on the central memorial, the cross was removed from the cemetery. In many cases, the regiment took back the cross and put it in their museum - the common case here in Canada.

 

On the matter of the MEMORIAL PLOT, there is a good example in Guards Cemetery for Mason et al here: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2762622.JPG

 

A MEMORIAL PLOT generally was a collection of INDIVIDUAL CROSSES as compared to a SINGLE MEMORIAL CROSS.

 

If you go and check on Mason, you will see that they found those men elsewhere: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/4029094/mason,-alfred-arthur/

 

They are in the Sucrerie Military Cemetery, Colincamps: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2052427.JPG

 

Guards Cemetery	Sucrerie Cemetery:

 

If the MEMORIAL CROSS was marking a battlefield burial site, generally a mass grave, then after the armistice the bodies would be concentrated into the appropriate cemetery and the cross would be sent elsewhere. One of the most famous of a Canadian Memorial Cross was that of the 15th Battalion at CA 35 near Thelus:

click to watch video

 

The 15th Battalion Memorial Cross was returned to Vimy Ridge for the 2017 Centennial celebrations and thereafter returned to Canada.