20454 Frederick Turnbull King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry who died at Redan Ridge

[ReprepAJ]

100 years on I’d love to finally find some more info about my great great Grandfather, it would mean a great deal to me to see what he looked like! 

 

Name: Frederick (or fred) Turnbull 

 

Service number: 20454

 

Regiment: Kings own Yorkshire L.I.

 

Death: 18th November 1916 

 

Redan Ridge cemetery NO.2 

 

Born: unknown 

 

Enlisted: unknow 

 

Age: unknown 

 

I would really appreciate any info anyone is able to find such as how he died and if anyone’s able to find any pictures of him

 

I have a picture of a piece of chalk from his trench which he carved out with his jack knife and carved a horse shoe into it with the words “good luck” other family members have that piece of chalk which is amazing, I know he was involved in a lot of fighting and was extremely lucky to have survived for as long as he did.

 

check media attached for pictures of the chalk! 

 

 

[ForeignGong]

Hi

On FMP there is a hit on Soldiers Died that also gives Birth Place Houghton-Le-Spring, Durham and Enlisted at Sunderland.

His MIC states entitled to a 1914-15 Star trio theatre first served in France from 14 Apr 1915.

[familyhistoryman]

 According to the Register of Soldiers’ Effects his father’s name was Michael. The Soldiers Died in the Great War gives his place of birth as Houghton-le-spring, Durham. His Medal Roll Index Card is at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001580-01452/5144097?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return 

He was in the 2nd Bn

Do you have the birth certificate of his son/daughter as this will help you find his marriage. Also check the local newspapers as there may be a report of his death and this could include an image 

Edited 9 November , 2018 by familyhistoryman
Additional information included

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

 

     During Friday 17 November 1916 Frederick's battalion moved up and took over positions at Beaumont-Hamel preparatory to an attack the following day on Munich and Frankfurt trenches to their fore.

     His battalion attacked in company of 11^th Battalion, Border Regiment and the 16^th and 17^th Battalions, Highland Light Infantry. The two right companies of the battalion became held up but the two left companies not only reached their objective, but pressed on to Ten Tree Alley. Here they were heavily attacked and were virtually wiped out.

     Casualties amounted to 14 officers and 351 other ranks killed or wounded.

     The War Diary records,

    “16 November 1916 - At 10pm the battalion moved into the front line and final attack orders were received. First objective was Munich Trench, final objective was Frankfurt Trench. Order of battle - left to right - 2^nd Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, 11^th Border, 16^th Highland Light Infantry. Left defensive flank - 14^th Brigade, 37^th Division on the right. On the night of 17-18 November the brigade moved into battle positions but the relief was difficult as the trenches were unfamiliar.

   18 November 1916 - 5.15am. At Beaumont Hamel the battalion was on its advanced line for the attack. All four battalions of the brigade were to attack on a front of 225 yards. The weather was bad, snowing just before the attack making observation difficult. Zero hour was 6.10am when our own barrage was intense and effective. The left half of the battalion reached Munich Trench but the right half was held up by machine guns and so took refuge in shell holes in front of the German wire. The left of the battalion went on to its final objective after heavy fighting and mopping up as they went. Reinforcements were sent to protect the right flank which, it was thought, was unprotected. At 5.30am, as 11^th Border had retired, the order was given to withdraw to the original line. By now, the battalion was reduced to 4 officers and 170 other ranks.”

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

[ReprepAJ]

4 hours ago, familyhistoryman said:

 According to the Register of Soldiers’ Effects his father’s name was Michael. The Soldiers Died in the Great War gives his place of birth as Houghton-le-spring, Durham. His Medal Roll Index Card is at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001580-01452/5144097?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return 

He was in the 2nd Bn

Do you have the birth certificate of his son/daughter as this will help you find his marriage. Also check the local newspapers as there may be a report of his death and this could include an image 

Thank you everyone for the information! How would I go about checking newspapers from that date? 

[ReprepAJ]

4 hours ago, GraemeClarke said:

Hi

 

     During Friday 17 November 1916 Frederick's battalion moved up and took over positions at Beaumont-Hamel preparatory to an attack the following day on Munich and Frankfurt trenches to their fore.

     His battalion attacked in company of 11^th Battalion, Border Regiment and the 16^th and 17^th Battalions, Highland Light Infantry. The two right companies of the battalion became held up but the two left companies not only reached their objective, but pressed on to Ten Tree Alley. Here they were heavily attacked and were virtually wiped out.

     Casualties amounted to 14 officers and 351 other ranks killed or wounded.

     The War Diary records,

    “16 November 1916 - At 10pm the battalion moved into the front line and final attack orders were received. First objective was Munich Trench, final objective was Frankfurt Trench. Order of battle - left to right - 2^nd Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, 11^th Border, 16^th Highland Light Infantry. Left defensive flank - 14^th Brigade, 37^th Division on the right. On the night of 17-18 November the brigade moved into battle positions but the relief was difficult as the trenches were unfamiliar.

   18 November 1916 - 5.15am. At Beaumont Hamel the battalion was on its advanced line for the attack. All four battalions of the brigade were to attack on a front of 225 yards. The weather was bad, snowing just before the attack making observation difficult. Zero hour was 6.10am when our own barrage was intense and effective. The left half of the battalion reached Munich Trench but the right half was held up by machine guns and so took refuge in shell holes in front of the German wire. The left of the battalion went on to its final objective after heavy fighting and mopping up as they went. Reinforcements were sent to protect the right flank which, it was thought, was unprotected. At 5.30am, as 11^th Border had retired, the order was given to withdraw to the original line. By now, the battalion was reduced to 4 officers and 170 other ranks.”

 

Regards,

 

Graeme

Absolutely amazing to have that insight in his final attack, I assume he must of been KIA attaching the final trench, on the last day of the Somme offensive is very unfortunate as well 

[familyhistoryman]

1 hour ago, ReprepAJ said:

Thank you everyone for the information! How would I go about checking newspapers from that date? 

I would check the local library where Frederick was living when he enlisted to see if they have copies of the local newspapers. You need to be aware that it might have taken some time for the family to receive the news. Failing that you might find that the British Library have copies. 

[ReprepAJ]

48 minutes ago, familyhistoryman said:

I would check the local library where Frederick was living when he enlisted to see if they have copies of the local newspapers. You need to be aware that it might have taken some time for the family to receive the news. Failing that you might find that the British Library have copies. 

He was killed on a Saturday so I assumed he would be mentioned in the local paper on the following Monday which would of been the 20th November 1916, could it have possibly been later than this? 

[ss002d6252]

29 minutes ago, ReprepAJ said:

He was killed on a Saturday so I assumed he would be mentioned in the local paper on the following Monday which would of been the 20th November 1916, could it have possibly been later than this? 

It could take weeks for notification of a death to make it's way through.

Craig

[ReprepAJ]

12 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It could take weeks for notification of a death to make it's way through.

Craig

Right i see! This is going to take a lot of work to find his picture, that’s even if his picture is posted in a paper, thank you anyway 

[Roger Thompson]

Looked on British Newspapers on FMP and nothing about him.

Upon the Houghton-Le-Springs Cenotaph there are two Turnbulls, one is J Turnbull the other one as just got Turnbull.

Sorry about the small amount of information.

Cheers Roger. 

[ReprepAJ]

9 minutes ago, Roger Thompson said:

Looked on British Newspapers on FMP and nothing about him.

Upon the Houghton-Le-Springs Cenotaph there are two Turnbulls, one is J Turnbull the other one as just got Turnbull.

Sorry about the small amount of information.

Cheers Roger. 

Damn, I don’t want to give up my search there surely has to be some picture of him, do you know anything else at all I could do? I would maybe consider paying some form of military historian to look into records for me? All I have of him is the chalk he cut out of his trench dug out 

[Roger Thompson]

I am not sure whether the British Newspapers covered all districts, I know it doesn't cover my local area.

 

I would find out if there is a library in Houghton le Springs, if so enquire if they have copies or microfilms of the papers of that time or if not where.

 

Approach the local paper asking for information about him via the letter section.

 

Have you tried the KOYLI Regimental museum to see if they have anything.

 

Cheers Roger.

 

 

[familyhistoryman]

Hi

You need to remember that Turnbull was born at Houghton le Springs and it does not mean he was living there when he enlisted. One source I previous mentioned stated he enlisted at Sunderland which again does not mean he was living there. Have you found him on the 1911 census? 

[ajt55]

Just as a side note, I am from Houghton le Spring.

 

I know a Houghton History group some years ago were looking at a Turnbull (not my relative), but found very little information on him.

 

My relatives in close by Murton, signed up up on Bridge Street in Sunderland. So it wouldn't be a bad try. Murton also has a history group, which were helpful for me and my Turnbull family. 

 

The Houghton history group, may have photos/an address where he resided. I can't remember completely, but sure Iron side (street) was where he was living. 

[Matlock1418]

No photo I am afraid but you might be interested to learn that thanks to the recovery/retention/digitalising and publishing of pension records by the Western Front Association / Ancestry (Fold 3) there is a Pension Card available:

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/669787736?terms=1019,20454,turnbull 

Looks like recorded as KOYLI 2nd Bn.

Dependant:

Mother: Mrs Mary Jane Turnbull, 128 Second Street  - deceased [Striktehrough on PC], Hordon, Col [sic] Durham

Father: Richard Turnbull, 8 Aged Miners Homes, Hordon, Col [sic] Durham [possibly dated 21.12.32]

[sadbrewer]

Horden is the place to look. 

 

 

Edit...found a 202999 A Turnbull ( Horden) of the DLI , wounded in the casualty lists of October 1917....could it be a brother?

 

Edit 2....20767 M Turnbull ( Horden) Northumberland Fusiliers in the casualty list of 3rd December 1918.

Edited 13 November , 2019 by sadbrewer

[Gunner Hall]

An F Turnbull is remembered on the Roll of Honour  at St Mary, Horden.   http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=7507 

and at the Weslian Methodist church, Horden  http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=9608

Again on the Drill Hall (now demolished)  http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=9609

Local newspapers to check are the Northern Echo and the Sunderland Echo and Shipping Gazette. Sadbrewer above has found the only article I've found. 

[Gunner Hall]

BTW,  Frederick had a younger brother, Albert, born Houghton Le Spring in 1895.  His service papers survive and are available on Ancestry.  Served in the 5th DLI as 2074 Turnbull, A.  with the Imperial Service Commitment,  and the 18th. DLI as Pte. 202999.   Along with Trench fever, Scarlet Fever, a GSW to the Shoulder he recieved 21 days Field Punishment.no 1 ,- he recieved the Military Medal,  with the 20th Btn on the Italian Front. 

The bullet was never removed and he continued to serve in the 5th TF until 1924. (I believe the the 5th had their drill hall in Horden.The same hall where his brother was remembered with honour)

His elder brother Walter,  (born Houghton Le Spring 1890,  I can't pin down. 

[Mark1959]

If the OP ever comes back FH had several older brothers. Can pick the family up 1891, 1901, 1911. The is a definitve proven link between Albert and Frederick. Some of the brothers have surviving service papers. As it was a mining family some may have been retained on that work. Other brothers are John, Thomas, Henry and Arthur. So there were at least 7 of them. Thomas and Henry are probably twins.