5 Squadron RFC

[Roger Pemberton]

My grandfather was an observer in 5 Squadron at Marieux in 1916/1917. He transferred from the Royal Garrison Artillery. Has anyone any information on 5 Squadron personnel and what happened to the Squadron after 1917. Grandfather’s name was Eric Vernon Pemberton. 

[pierssc]

Hello again Roger - I presume you are the same Roger Pemberton with whom I corresponded three years or so ago on the forum, in a new incarnation?  Your grandfather flew a few times with mine (though not, I think operationally)

 

I am trying to compile a chart of people active in 5 Squadron in 1916/17 - it is turning out to be a bit of a task.  Done about 30 so far, still got a long way to go.  Some new information has come on line which really helps.  Though the initials are transcribed differently, I think this is your grandfather and it records his time with the Expeditionary Force:

 

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/18522

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/18523

 

I am not very up to speed with what happened in 1918 but they were still in France flying RE8s at the end of the war.

 

You will have lost our previous correspondence with your original GWF identity but I can send them again if you want

 

Cheers

Piers

[MikeMeech]

3 hours ago, pierssc said:

Hello again Roger - I presume you are the same Roger Pemberton with whom I corresponded three years or so ago on the forum, in a new incarnation?  Your grandfather flew a few times with mine (though not, I think operationally)

 

I am trying to compile a chart of people active in 5 Squadron in 1916/17 - it is turning out to be a bit of a task.  Done about 30 so far, still got a long way to go.  Some new information has come on line which really helps.  Though the initials are transcribed differently, I think this is your grandfather and it records his time with the Expeditionary Force:

 

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/18522

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/18523

 

I am not very up to speed with what happened in 1918 but they were still in France flying RE8s at the end of the war.

 

You will have lost our previous correspondence with your original GWF identity but I can send them again if you want

 

Cheers

Piers

Hi

 

No. 5 Squadron from the Battle of Amiens to the end of the war was the Corps Squadron for the Canadian Corps, hence the squadron badge, Maple Leaf with a number 5.  What details are actually needed besides personnel?

 

Mike

[pierssc]

Hi Mike, you’ve quoted me but your question seems more directed at the OP.  Which of us are you asking?

 

 

[MikeMeech]

57 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Hi Mike, you’ve quoted me but your question seems more directed at the OP.  Which of us are you asking?

 

 

Hi

 

Either really, there must be a reason for collecting the names of squadron personnel this way, I am presuming that the War Diaries/SRBs must be unavailable (although I haven't checked but presume you both have?) as many of the names could be retrieved from there, so are either of you trying to 'rebuild' the 'missing history' for No. 5 Squadron?

 

Mike

[Roger Pemberton]

Thank you both for your responses. Good to hear from you again Piers. Really I am just trying to trace Grandfather’s progress through the conflict. Thank you for the Casualty forms. I’m not sure how to interpret parts of them. Does ‘Home est’ mean that he returned to England? What does the reverse tell us about his the remaining years of the war? I do have all the material you sent Piers and I am most grateful to you. I still wonder about the aeroplane propeller I have (one blade of four) that carries the label ‘5 Squadron Somme Ancre Nov 1917’. He told me many years ago that it was from a plane which had crashed on active service at Marieux.

[pierssc]

Mike, my initial interest was similar to Roger’s in that I wanted to try to find out more about events my grandfather was involved in and something about the other people he would have known.  My research so far has concentrated on the window of his attachment to the Squadron - August 1916 to May 1917.  What I have found is that though casualties were comparatively light for most of this period, there was quite a high turnover of people in the normal course of events being rotated back to HE or to other squadrons, and being a 2 seater Squadron of course meant that there were quite a lot of officers there at any one time (especially after the Squadron expanded in July 1916) and of course even more other ranks who are more difficult to trace.  So my chart/spreadsheet still has some way to go even on my limited criteria.  Tentatively, I would like to expand this backwards and forwards in time but I am still feeling my way in terms of recording and presenting data. 

 

The initial list of names came from his diaries and logbooks, supplemented by Squadron Record Books and casualty returns and combat reports where they exist.  These are patchy as they changed Wing a couple of times during the period and sequences of what was kept are broken.  There are SRBs (or the equivalent from Wing) from August (and earlier, but I wasn’t looking for them) to the beginning of October 1916 (while they were with 2 Wing) but the sequence stops wih the move to 15 Wing and Marieux.  However there are casualty returns for 15 Wing which list all ranks leaving the Squadron from January-March 1917 and then there is a very detailed SRB for Bloody April - but not May 1917. It picks up after that but I haven’t explored there yet.  And then of course there is airhistory which can pick up other names which one can then check against casualtyforms.  And I don’t think I have dug out from the NA all that there is even for my limited timeframe, given that a lot of information seems to have been duplicated to some extent.  So one way or another I think it should be possible to create at least the chart for the period I am mainly interested in.  I am noting people’s complete service with the Sq so that for example one can see that one flight commander in August 1916 had joined back in December 1915 (and remained until he went to HE on 19th September).  It is quite a good period as the more one looks into who was there the more interesting characters emerge, such as Flt Sgt Eardley Haydon alias “Bill” Lawford, authors Lessel Finer Hutcheon (“War Flying”) and Arthur Ernest Illingworth (“Fly Papers”) and of course Leigh-Mallory and Slessor.

 

Roger, the casualty forms show movements of RFC officers in and out of the Expeditionary Force.  In the case of your grandfather, it shows that he was attached to 5 Squadron on 12th May 1916.  A few days later he was given leave - 22 May to 1st June.  He qualified as an Observer (getting his “wing) on 10th August and was accepted into the RFC at that point.   He had two further periods of leave from 7th to 14th September and 29th December 1916 to 12th January 1917, and went back to Home Establishment (UK) on 31st January.  The record then goes silent because he is no longer in the BEF.  He reappears on 1st January 1918 when he is noted (I think from the London Gazette) as an assistant instructor graded as an Equipment Officer 2nd Class (a ground job).  He is attached to No.1 ASD (Aeroplane Supply Depot) on 2nd October 1918 and on 29th October posted to the Independant Air Force on temporary duty (no Squadron is noted).  He gets leave from 15th to 20th November, and is posted home on 17th December 1918.  To fill in some of the gaps you probably need his file AIR76/398/58 from the National Archives and do a London Gazette search.

 

But going back to your original question, yes there is a bit of information out there particularly in the SRBs and summaries of work (as far as they still exist) which list every flight everyone made and for what purpose.  AIR1/1310/204/13 is the general reference.  If there is anyone you are particularly looking for I may have information.  Eventually I hope to be able to tell you who was there on any particular day, but not yet!   I don’t think we may be able to trace the broken prop though - I can’t find a record of an aircraft crashing or being badly damaged in the right serial range involving EV Pemberton.  There were frequent incidents which may have resulted in broken props, not necessarily involving the person who ended up with the trophy.  5th November was a gusty day and two aircraft were blown over - Saunders and ? in 5742 (which needed a new set of wings but the incident doesn’t appear in airhistory) and Insoll and Polhill in 2509.  Possibly 10th November: “One chap knocked his undercarriage off on landing and crashed the machine” (J Kerr Diary) - I can’t identify this from airhistory either, possibly 6728 recorded as wrecked on 11.11.  So it might have come from one of those - or from an aircraft belonging to another squadron.  Did your grandfather fly with Saunders maybe? [Clarification - Roger mentioned that he had a propellor blade from a BE in a post and correspondence with me a few years ago and I overlooked that he hadn't mentioned it on this thread yet].

 

Cheers

Piers

Edited 7 November , 2018 by pierssc
Clarification

[Guest]

Piers, in case you have looked at this, would be very interested in 5 Squadron SRB information or combat reports for the period April to June 1918 when my grandfather Sidney Vickers was a pilot with it, based at Acq then moving to Filescamp Farm, Izel Le Hameaux on 25 May 18. I believe he had a severe crash after combat sometime in June and his nerves went, hence posted home, but trying to find out more. There's little detail about this in his service record or casualty form...

 

cheers

Ben

[pierssc]

Hi Ben, I had a quick look at his casualty form and he was only at the front about a month before going home - 24th April to 29th May 1918.  Airhistory shows he had two crashes in quick succession; on 17 May he was flying in RE8 E7 with Lt C.E. Gardener when the engine choked on take off for an artillery patrol and they sideslipped and crashed; both were recorded as OK.  Four days later on 21st May he suffered a similar accident with 2/Lt AC Dutton when RE8 B7805 crashed on a crosswind take off on an artillery obs mission.  Again both men were "OK".  Both aircraft were completely wrecked and struck off charge a few days later and Sidney went home a few days after the second crash.  One can understand his nerves/confidence being shaken by two such crashes in similar circumstances in quick succession - it would take a lot to face a take off after that.  I haven't looked for the record books for this period but will keep my eyes open.  I'm not ready to start going through them yet but after all if I get them copied I can always look things like this up.

 

Cheers

Piers

Edited 7 November , 2018 by pierssc
Typos/phrasing

[Guest]

Hi Piers

thanks for that - not long! He was just 18 (he and his gunner Gardiner where the youngest on the squadron, he told me), and the second crash left him with bits of wood in his hands which he had till he died.  Many thanks,

cheers

Ben

[Roger Pemberton]

Thank you all. I am most indebted to you.

Roger Pemberton