regiment identification

[marion harper]

I must also say that this man seems to have lived a fairly colourful live..having married his sister they ran away to Canada. he then retuned to fight in France. I have the two attached phos which I am trying ro compare to see if it is the same man

 

[ss002d6252]

There is a Charles Harper in the AVC (SE-20155) but he was only a private, not a Sgt, based on his MIC.

There was also a Charles Alexander Harper, #17301/#112495, born 1882 London, who was a Lance Corporal and then moved to the RFA. No sign of him being an AVC Sgt.

 

Craig

[marion harper]

the one who I have all the info on is Charles Gordon harper

[Steven Broomfield]

The chap in the lower picture is wearing shoulder chains, which is a cavalry 'thing', and might fit with King Edwards's Horse (although they would not have worn them in France, I doubt)

[marion harper]

Mystery now solved. The picture of the man with the cap is of Alber Johnson SE/13788 Army Vetinanry Corps. Can anyone tell me where he might have served during WW1

Edited 16 February , 2019 by marion harper
add information

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for reporting back to confirm the badge Marion, it’s good to know that we made a good call fairly early on, even though the image was at first quite poor.

 

Many AVC served at remount depots and Horse hospitals and equine convalescent centres, both in Britain and Ireland and France and Flanders. See: https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-army-horses-during-first-world-war

Edited 16 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[marion harper]

Hello, after a bit of a gap in research I am now on the trail of this man again.

Charles Gordon Harper born 1896.

I know that he served in the following regiments.

KE Horse,  1283 private

Royal Tank Corps, 112192 private

Royal Munster Fusiliers, Attached Royal Air Force 2nd lieutenant

 

I have the attached photo which i think may be him and previous enquires have led to the cap badge being identified as AVC

 

There is a Charles Harper in the AVC (SE-20155) but he was only a private.

 

I also have a picture of Charles in later life and I have the following questions:

 

1.Does anyone think the pictures are of the same man.

 

2.Did any of the regiments he served with have a veterinery corps.

 

3,are there specific records for the Air Force attachment

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, marion harper said:

2.Did any of the regiments he served with have a veterinery corps.

Apart from basic things done by the troops in the unit the Army Veterinary Corps covered anything else (and only the AVC would be badged as such).

 

Craig

[marion harper]

I am not sure what you mean by this - can you explain further

[FROGSMILE]

Marion to answer your specific questions in sequence: 

 

1.  No, I definitely don’t think the ‘odd photo’ of the four that you posted (three of which show the same Sergeant in the AVC) are the same man.  At the very best there might be a family connection, but the other man, marked out by shoulder chains, has a completely different jawline and much squarer face than the other fellow, which together rule him out from being the same person.  The only thing that one might say is that men of King Edwards’s Horse were among several units that wore shoulder chains, something that was less commonly seen with the khaki service dress being worn in your photo.
 

2.  The AVC served at equine focused establishments such as remount depots, cavalry schools, equine hospitals and equine convalescent centres.  None of those relate directly to the different regiments/corps that you’ve mentioned, although someone in King Edward’s Horse might have interfaced briefly when on duty with horses.

 

3.  The Royal Air Force detail that you mentioned does not make sense.  A man is not “attached” as a second lieutenant, he’s either commissioned as an officer, or he’s still an other rank (private up to warrant officer).  I think you’ve become a little confused, which is entirely understandable.  It’s not wholly impossible that your man transferred into the Royal Munster Fusiliers and obtained a commission with them, especially during the latter half of the war when the supply of officers became difficult.  He might then have applied for an attachment, already as an officer, to the R.A.F.  The latter would have been either, as trainee aircrew, or as a quartermaster - QM (responsible for the logistics supply and infrastructure of his unit).

Edited 24 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[marion harper]

As far as I can find out all the regiments listed above are genuine for him as i o have copies of various paper relating to his was service gratuity application. I know that photo 4 is definitely him.

 

The rest is a mystery .

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, marion harper said:

As far as I can find out all the regiments listed above are genuine for him as i o have copies of various paper relating to his was service gratuity application. I know that photo 4 is definitely him.

 

The rest is a mystery .

Well photo 4, and the other two head and shoulder shots of the same man, are categorically and definitely showing a Sergeant in the Army Veterinary Corps.  It’s not completely impossible that he spent a specific period as an acting sergeant whilst still a substantive private (to carry out a particular job), which would not show on any medal index card or medal roll.  He would have reverted to private on completion of the job.  In the absence of an extant service record there would be no trace of that.  He might have transferred between the other units that you mention, changing his cap badge each time, but what I’ve explained regarding being a commissioned officer remains true.  It would certainly have been an especially ‘unusual’ course to take. 

Edited 24 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SteveE]

59 minutes ago, marion harper said:

As far as I can find out all the regiments listed above are genuine for him as i o have copies of various paper relating to his was service gratuity application. I know that photo 4 is definitely him.

3 of the 4 photos (1, 2 and 4 as I view them) are of the same man who you've identified earlier as Acting Sergeant SE/13788 Albert Johnson, Army Veterinary Corps...  Are the photos showing in a different order and you're asking about the identity of photo 3 who, to my eyes, is a different man from the other photos?

 

Steve

[SteveE]

I suspect that the 3rd photo is probably that of Charles Gordon Harper in the uniform of the King Edward's Horse (I think that's chain mail epaulettes I'm seeing in the photo) with whom he initially served as #1283 with the rank of Private before subsequent transfer to the Tank Corps as #112192 and later commissioning to the 3rd Royal Munster Fusiliers...

 

Steve

Edited 24 March , 2021 by SteveE

[FROGSMILE]

That all makes sense I think Steve and pretty much confirms what’s been said earlier in the thread, especially by Craig and Steven Broomfield.

Edited 24 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[marion harper]

So can anyone explains all this to me.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

26 minutes ago, marion harper said:

So can anyone explains all this to me.

What in particular?

[FROGSMILE]

Makes a lot more sense now that you’ve posted the document.  Nothing on it surprises me that much and my take based just on what you’ve posted is as follows:

 

1.  Enlisted with 2nd King Edward’s Horse, a unit that (along with the loosely associated 1st King Edward’s Horse) focused its recruitment on the old dominions, ostensibly recruiting squadrons from each, e.g. Canada, Australasia, South Africa, etc.  There had earlier been a reputation of such men built in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.

 

2.  When it was realised that there would be less need for mounted troops in a European war of machine guns and modern artillery some of the KEH Squadrons provided men for the embryo Tank Corps, seemingly including your subject.

 

3.  From late 1916 onward there were increasing problems with supplying sufficient replacement officers for those killed and maimed.  One of the measures taken was to introduce opportunities for ambitious and self sufficient men to apply for commissions, especially with the infantry but also with other arms.  The 3rd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers was the Reserve unit that provided officers for the regiment and was the holding unit once an officer was commissioned and until such time as he was drafted to a battalion serving in the line.  It was also the battalion where an officer would return after wounding, or attending a lengthy  training course, and ultimately discharged when no longer required. A kind of way station if you like, and they were usually located at ports to ease access to sea and rail transport.  The 3rd Bn RMF moved to Plymouth from Devonport in April 1918 and in May, after absorbing the 4th and 5th Bns, remained there until the Armistice.  Pirbright was one of several strategically placed Demobilisation Centres at the end of the war and into 1919 and a place where the necessary organisation of demobilisation suits and administration could be centred in order for the processing to be more efficiently delivered.

 

NB.  Of your photos this could only be the man with the shoulder chains and is nothing to do with the AVC Sergeant.

Edited 24 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

I think there is some confusion over the expression ‘attached’ to the RAF which is a notation on the medal index card carried over from the Roll for the BWM and VM which were not issued until 1931.  His 14-15 Star is on the Tank Corps Roll.

 

He enlisted in King Edward’s Horse as shown on the 19th December 1914 for the duration of the war. He went to France on the 5th May 1915 with the 2nd KEH which was disbanded in France in August 1917. Most of the men went into the Tank Corps and his number is sequential with these transfers.  He remained a Private on transfer.

 

Commissioned 27th February 1918. (MIC) and posted to the Royal Munster Fusiliers. His officer’s record is at TNA WO374/31099.  These records have not been digitised, and the National Archives are closed at present due to the pandemic.  When they open there are researchers who will copy the record for you for a small fee.

 Commission published p4074 Supplement to the LG 3 April 1918.

The document posted above gives details of a gratuity paid by theCanadian Government and includes details of separation allowance (12/6 per week) paid to his dependent Kate Harper (wife? mother?) whilst serving in the British Army.  I don’t know details of the Canadian gratuity.

 

On the 7th November 1918 he was posted to the RAF 76th Wing Training Squadron, presumably for pilot training.

Posted to 231 Training Squadron Felixstowe on 13th March 1919.  He apparently did not make the grade, no reason given and was returned to 3rd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers on 24th May when he was struck off the strength of the RAF.

His brief (single page of 2)RAF record is on FMP.

 

He probably remained with the 3rd Battalion until demobilised on the 16th September 1919 as shown in the document above.

 

There is no indication on the extant online records that he ever held non-commissioned rank.

 

[delta]

The Tank Corps number indicates a transfer in early 1917. 

 

[marion harper]

Thank you so much for all of the help. This bloke is a bit of a mystery and there are a number of discrepancies. I have a few documents relating to his gratuity issue. Charles was born in England in 1893 and married his sister Kathleen Grace Harper in 1915...very strange.  I have supporting evidence for all of this and all of the addresses he gives etc tally up. However on the attached document he has given a false date and place of birth. All other details remain the same. why would he do this? any ideas. He did however keep up the pretense on his date of birth until he died by committing suicide in 1931 by drowning himself.

 

Also can anyone tell me what the initials. S.A & A.P stand for.

[FROGSMILE]

Although an incestuous motive isn’t impossible it seems possible that he might have married his sister (presumably with one using an assumed name) in order that she could get the benefit of any pension and perhaps free passage to Canada.  To use false birth details on an official document was usually to cover tracks and avoid officialdom making unwanted inquiries with those people connected with a man’s past.  I’m sorry but I don’t know what the acronym stood for.

[Keith Brannen]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Although an incestuous motive isn’t impossible it seems possible that he might have married his sister (presumably with one using an assumed name) in order that she could get the benefit of any pension and perhaps free passage to Canada. 

There is a Charles Harper marrying a Kathleen G Harper in the last quarter of 1915 in the district of Thanet, Kent. So, something strange, or an assumption?

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Keith Brannen said:

There is a Charles Harper marrying a Kathleen G Harper in the last quarter of 1915 in the district of Thanet, Kent. So, something strange, or an assumption?

It puzzles me how banns or a marriage licence would ever indulge a known incestuous marriage so it does seem odd without knowing the intimate details of who was who.

[Gardenerbill]

Could one of them perhaps be adopted.